>>314052
Considering it's lifewarping, "some variation on "warped" would probably be ideal. "Warped Knights"? It doesn't really roll off the tongue as well as I'd like.

A new problem occurs to me now. Lifewarping... kind of doesn't work like that. It's a tough discipline, but it's not the sort to draw energy from somewhere else and go out of control, so much as the sort to boringly create a variation on what you wanted that may or may not be good enough. It's not even entirely magic, there's a lot of good old eugenics in the process of making anything concrete.

So where does this hugely chaotic variant come from? Well, it comes from a draconian, of course. But we can get more into that than we have so far. I reckon it could have been one known for being chaotic. And perhaps should have been one of the ones Tiamat subsumed.

>>314054

My understanding of Lifewarping was that it was vaguely similar to mutation by exposure to radiation: zap someone with it, they mutate, but because it's magic you have more control over it (and you're more likely to get firebreathing than cancer). Smart lifewarpers would do it the boring way, trying to introduce small changes and then breeding them for further fine-tuning, but the big old-magic draconians would have used silver-age-comics levels of stuff: mild mannered bruce bannerbold is caught in the heart of a magical explosion and now when he becomes angry or scared etc etc etc

Maybe it was only the draconian equivalent of mad scientists who used this chaotic form of lifewarping.

As for names, how about the old hat of naming things after weapons? Warped Spears, or Warpedblades, or something.

>>314055
>My understanding
Yeah, I meant to specify in mine that it was just my own interpretation, as it hasn't really been specified, but I forgot. Originally, it was definitely supposed to be more eugenics themed, though, and I think that still fits best and makes for the most compelling ethical situations.


>Maybe it was only the draconian equivalent of mad scientists who used this chaotic form of lifewarping.
I like this idea.
Naga, who is known for creating the kobolds and Heloraen Vosilea, and is called "persecutor of all creatures" would likely have used this.
She couls also be the originator of our order that we're working on, if we want.

Other candidates (those dragons without contradictory fluff) include:
Belial[b]. A baron type dude, a big fan of decadence. They say bits of his soul formed the Nidhogr.
[b]SmaugSon of Glaumrung. Forcibly seized a dwarf fortress.
Grendelliked to fight random folks.
GlaumrungFriend to Belial, father to Smaug.
AivaWas appointed during the Fall of the Nine, did basically nothing important before dying.

>Warped Spears
I like this.

>>314055
>Mild-Manner Bruce Bannerbold ... Whenever he becomes angry or scared
Holy shit this is now canon.

>>314059
I think we should nail these down. At least six of them with notable styles and possibly even a few relics, but a few without much on them to develop as the DM wills.

Also, http://draconic.twilightrealm.com/

>>314059

"Aiva" sounds like the name of a sexy german scientist lady who unwittingly works for the villain in a james bond movie.

This ritual sounds like the sort of thing some diabolical fellow would have made in order to create legions of supersoldiers, although now it has been repurposed for the cause of Good (or at least, not evil).

On the subject of the Empires period...

When you have an Empire, you get merchants. It's a natural progression: armies need support, conquered cities need resources for reconstruction, and there's all this new stuff that needs to be shipped back home. With all the trained wagon drivers and quartermasters kicking around all of a sudden, trade blooms.

Now, in this era the goblins are the masters of the ocean, if I recall, but the faestir would probably hold the big share on overland trade. Faestir marchants, faestir caravans, rumbling along over the new roads that the faestir would have to make. This sets up a case where the faestir probably employ their newly "protected" races for the commonest jobs; dwarfs to dig out and lay stone roads, kobolds working on tea plantations, burly human labourers hefting casks and crates to and fro. Faestir aren't going to leave their own lands to do such things; only traders and soldiers and the occasional scholar would be seen by most other races. So what perception does this make? A pretty troublesome one, in regards racial tension. But, then, that would be balanced against the protection from monsters and bandits and the various trappings of civilization that the faestir bring in.

This is beginning to make them sound like a cross between the british and the romans.

>>314066
Sounds good to me, though I'm not seeing any more similarities to the romans than that they have an empire.And build roads on the backs of their slaves, apparently.

Compare this to the Sidhe, which are culturally very roman, but have japanese military theory (at least in that the wealthy among them may spend most of their lives perfecting a fighting style, which may or may not be practical, but is likely very impressive to behold regardless.

The Goblis, on the other hand, don't really correlate to any RL societies, though some parallels could be drawn to modern western culture.

>>314067
The closest equivalent to Goblins might be the Jewish Diaspora after the failed revolts against Rome in the first and second century CE. Another parallel might be the Romani (aka gypsies) of Europe.

The Goblins are much more organized though. The Goblin Remnant has a few cities and a respectable merchant/naval fleet that maintains contact with their wild and ghetto cousins.

FUN HISTORICAL FACT! The Goblintowns found in many major cities are now run-down and overcrowded slums, but were once the location of an outpost of the Great Goblin Empire and the local governor!

EQUALLY FUN HISTORICAL FACT! Absolutely nobody wants to admit to this. Local races hold modern goblins in contempt and the goblins face enough problems without stirring up old resentments. The Sidhe also never point it out because that would obviously mean the GGE had power over much of the world while the Sidhe never got out of Londerfell.

Hmmm, paladin or paladin-equivalents? So far we have:

Well, god-pledged of course. Your basic cleric on a mission from a god (or The God if following the Aurelian Creed). All the races have these.

There are the Faestir who scour the land to find Draconian artifacts and take them back to Warehouse 23 in Bejwaere. Purely for the protection of other races and not because the Faestir are stockpiling WMDs. They also have chimney-ninjas but they rarely leave their home city.

If you are allowing firearms, dwarves make the best ones. That means they are being made by dwarves and for dwarves (export is just a sideline) and for a reason. If true, it is something the dwarves do not speak of.

The goblins have undead-hunters scouring the Sea of Ghosts.

The humans have the Holy Orders of Aurel, founded by the disciples of Aurel himself. They ride lifewarped mounts benevolently provided by the Sidhe.

The gnolls have the Ghost Faces. They deal with those so intoxicated by Mother Moon's light that they become Laughing Ones.

The Toltecatl have a heretical sect who believe that anti-knowledge exists and retards PROGRESS! They try to destroy it lest it corrupt the Great Library. They are opposed by the various factions of Rs who serve orthodox PROGRESS!

Other races have elite forces and what-not, but a mystical order serving a higher purpose? I'm sure I'm missing some.

It occurs to me that resentment for the faestir probably helped contribute to their fall. Destroying one city, no matter how central, would probably not have precipitated such a calamitous descent; if, however, the locals throughout the empire decided to take advantage, that's another factor into it.

If that was the case, though, it'd be a case of frenzied flight rather than orderly withdrawal, so that means there'd have been faestir refugees running around everywhere rather than the entire race retreating back to one place.

Would it be interesting to have "wild" faestir, cut off from all the old benefits they had, living in some isolated area? They would have been able to inhabit rugged terrain that other races wouldn't try at. The idea of technologically primitive ratfolk stealthily hopping around the mountains with spears and loincloths is an intriguing one. They could be like a cross between stereotypical spear-wielding tribesmen and scottish highlanders.

They might even, being descended from those too disadvantaged to get passage back to their homelands, not have any of the vaess blood other faestir have, and instead preserved the lifewarping ritual thing.

Which someone should probably do as a proper prestige class. I have a couple of ideas.

>If you are allowing firearms, dwarves make the best ones.
Um, no. Goblins have boom jelly, which makes the best cannon. It's better than black powder both because it is immune to damp (being, presumably, petroleum based or something) and it has a better power output. Humans in Barthelmia also have some crude gunpowder stuff, which is inferior to the goblin stuff and is generally not used by anyone else. There are undoubtedly some gunsmiths among them, and not just dwarven weapons.

>The Toltecatl have a heretical sect who believe that anti-knowledge exists and retards PROGRESS!
Perhaps they believe the doobies to be powerful forces of anti-knowledge? This would tie in well with the fae origin of the doobies, for people that use that one.

>>314076
Very few Faestir ever went to conquered areas, though. Just the governors and their households, really.

>>314077
>Very few Faestir ever went to conquered areas, though. Just the governors and their households, really.

I find this... dubious.

First, the military goes out there. With the military comes the supplies, the people who handle the supplies, the armourers, the army bureaucrats, the diplomatic corps, the medics, various camp followers, et cetera, and in many cases some of the family members of these people.

They conquer the place and that's all well, a lot of them move on but you do keep some behind, because you never know when you'll need some very trustworthy armed forces when you've just pacified a bunch of people (and the less of your own commoners you have out, the less pacified they are likely to stay).

Then you have the governors, but they have a crew of trusted personal servants, and their own squad of bureaucrats to handle paperwork. You will also have the various merchants who come out to take advantage of the fact that you've conquered these places, along with some entrepreneurial prospectors, people looking to set up production of things to send back home, and so forth. And a healthy number of the homeland's criminal classes who have decided they'd rather take their chances out on the borders rather than back in the good ol' well-policed motherland.

All these people, after a few years, will naturally add to their own numbers.

They would certainly be in a sharp minority in most of the empire, but not, I think, to the degree you specify.

>>314078
Well the highlands of Furnshakt have never been fully explored (by anyone civilized that is, nobody cares what the barbarian inhabitants say) and it seems a likely place to retreat to if all of Solaris was up in arms against you.

On the other hand, the Faestir had a slow motion collapse with Tiamat raising the kobolds against them. Everyone overseas was called home to defend the heart of the Empire. That would leave few behind in the former territories.

The Goblin collapse was much different. I don't have the poetry to describe those terrible hours. All those witness to it died when the Goblin homeland convulsed, exploded and sank beneath the waves to save the world.

Only those Goblins ruling, trading, in garrison, or at sea survived that cataclysm. With nowhere else to go they stayed where they were. Waiting for ships from a homeland that was no more. It was decades later before those that had survived on the mountains of the now Goblin Islands reestablished contact. By that point their place in the world had been lost and has never been recovered.

>>314079

Assuming it was a long campaign rather than just surprise kobolds out of nowhere, the faestir would have had time to realize that their normal tactics wouldn't work and that the only way they'd win was a war of attrition; to do that, they'd need to outnumber and generally out-resource the kobolds, for which their greatest asset was the empire they already had.

Thus they would have kept a significant number of their people out (though they'd recall almost all the veteran soldiers) so that they could recruit/conscript emergency forces from among the locals and ship them back, along with the supplies gathered from those lands (which would be equally necessary for the war back home).

This sets things up for the faestir's last shot at saving themselves to be screwed up by the opportunistic rebellion of native inhabitants throughout their empire, thus creating a reason for the surviving faestir to carry their own disdain for other races, as well as the potential for the previously suggested faestir diaspora, who would be just within the range of population where the GM can feature them or ignore them as they wish.

>>314080
It was probably short. The Great Fuckup was aptly named. The defeat of the Outsiders via Bongo Bongo was probably the shock that awoke the dead/mortally wounded/extremely sleepy Tiamat for one last spasm of rage. Naga as well as well as possibly others.

The official line is that all the Draconians died at the end of their age. This is strictly adhered to amongst all the races with historians. The fall of the Faestir is chalked up to revolt in the wake of the Great Fuckup. But dead or deathless or an imitation indistinguishable from butter, the Faestir faced Tiamat, a Draconian of the Scaled Court.

Bricks were shat and panic ensued. It probably took years instead of months, but their empire collapsed shortly after the goblins. What with the rebellions and the necrostorms and flooding and that Tiamat thing.

The Sidhe were always a third-tier player and the cratering of their flying cities during the Great Fuckup didn't help them much.

A lost legion of Faestir in Furnshakt or Everoc? Sure. Small scattered outposts of cunning milliners? Sure. But a widespread refugee presence? That's a niche occupied by the goblins and takes away from the Faestir doomed race status.

>>314074
>while the Sidhe never got out of Londerfell.
They did have some towns in northern Vilous, just across what's now called the Bay of Rain.

>>314078
>the supplies, the people who handle the supplies
These, at least, would likely be outsourced to the lowest bidder, which would be either goblins or non-hostile natives, depending on the campaign.

>but you do keep some behind, because you never know when you'll need some very trustworthy armed forces when you've just pacified a bunch of people
These would likely be the governor's own retinue, and thus counted in "members of the governor's house"

>Then you have the governors, but they have a crew of trusted personal servants, and their own squad of bureaucrats to handle paperwork.
Hence, the governors' households

>You will also have the various merchants who come out to take advantage of the fact that you've conquered these places, along with some entrepreneurial prospectors, people looking to set up production of things to send back home, and so forth. And a healthy number of the homeland's criminal classes who have decided they'd rather take their chances out on the borders rather than back in the good ol' well-policed motherland.
These are the folks that I don't think would go. The merchant jobs could easily be outsourced to goblins, and what wealthy Faestir wouldn't rather tell some goblins what to do than do it himself? Presumably they are employed by some rough equivalent of the East India trading company.
The criminal underclass (which is already small, Faestir being what they are) likely lack sufficient funds for transport. Especially when they could just as easily venture out into the kobold lands, and not have to deal with gnolls and sergals.

>>314080
Problem: Once the Faestir stop doing that, the conquered populace decide they don't like belonging to the Faestir Empire, now that it includes obligations beyond merely tolerating a pompous governor.

>>314081
>The Sidhe were always a third-tier player and the cratering of their flying cities during the Great Fuckup didn't help them much.
The Sidhe didn't have flying cities, those were the Caele. But the cities did land more in Sidhe lands, because they'd floated over elven lands more than elsewhere. They also likely had some measure of contact with the sidhe, trading for things and whatnot. The only ones who wouldn't were the ones that didn't actually fall. They were crazy and isolationist even for the Caele, and stayed very high up. Thus the Sidhe would have taken the heaviest damage from falling cities, and it is the second largest contributor to their current lack of magical wonders, after Naga's fuckery. The greatest cities were likely the worst hit - perhaps the flying cities were attracted to great concentrations of magic.

The Draconians all died at the end of their age. That is the official line and nobody contradicts it. It is hard enough maintaining an official religion without adding fuel to the ever persistent Draconian cultists who believe the old god figures will rise again and reward them.

But the official line and truth are two separate things. There are some historians who have studied the Big Fuckup period. They have pieced together the stories and know that the Water Forest wasn't always there.

There is a secret name for the period after the Big Fuckup period. The Draconic Interregnum. For during those brief years Draconians walked across the world and empires fell in their shadow.

How and why nobody knows. Records are so spotty that even speculation is absurd. But that which rose before can rise again. Batobot svabolen ui loex shilta waph lapiet! Shio vinult darastrixi!

*ahem* By which I mean the Big Fuckup period is a little understood and revolutionary period. More than a thousand years later it still shapes our world.

>>314082
>governor's households

If that includes the military as well, that's going to be at least a couple of hundred faestir, plus families.

You seem like you're stretching a bit to maintain the idea that faestir would keep an extremely low presence in the lands they have taken responsibility for. Although their main objective is only to clean up the mess left by the Draconians, part of that cleaning is to try and reintroduce things like law and learning and the infrastructure of civilization.

Second to that, recall as well that at this point the faestir have a focus on the military in their culture as well. The Vaess, who are warriors by nature, are at the top of their society, and their books and children's stories and such are all going to be about people who went out to fight for the cause of peace and to earn fame and fortune in exotic far-off places.

They're going to want to get out there themselves!

>>314085
There was undoubtedly an overseas Faestir presence, but I see them mostly sticking to Lindwurm. It's a big place and is both their homeland and seems to be the favored stomping grounds of the Draconians. This is based on the large number of ruins found there. It is theorized they liked the climate.

During the Kobold Uprising a lot of the overseas missionaries/garrisons would have been called home. Most of the Vaess were killed, the capital city of Opossokarthel fell and the fluff at one point had total survivors in the tens of thousands range at one point, though I can't seem to find it. Anyway, every resource was needed.

More importantly, what would you do with overseas Faestir colonies? You could already wedge them into foreign districts (as most trading cities seem to have those, either goblin or lizardman) or with their own outpost amongst the Lawless Human Cities.

But I'd be interested to hear what new stories you could spin out of your idea. Degenerate hillbilly cousins who only wear hats outside and bring shame to the entire race?

>>314086

Mostly I just want a clan or two of scottish-esque celtic mountain faestir. Tartan kilts and spears, hopping around on the craggy cliffs with their mountain goat herds, occasionally raiding local settlements for extra goods. Some cultural cross-pollination with dwarves, who they may well live on top of.

It'd lend some variety to the species.

>>314087
I like it. It fits in with the Queen-shittingly British vibe of the Faestir by giving them embarrassing country cousins (as seen by both sides) and opening up options for PCs.

The obvious locations are Furnshakt (the barbarian lands south of the Federated Kingdoms) and Everoc (where all races live in peace and harmony as long as they don't dig too deep and don't mind the occasional village vanishing overnight). Everoc also has the benefit of having dwarves for cultural influence.

For some reason I'm thinking that in addition to the usual gruff, miserly, pragmatic attitude there is also a steampunkish flair of Faestir being eager to test new devices that dwarves love to design and build but would never use. Definitely not "Suddenly, Jules Verne Everywhere!" but the occasional 007 gadget about the power of a minor magic-item but with a different flavor.

That being said, is it realistic. What was up for grabs during the Age of Three Empires?

First of all let's toss out population pressure as a reason for overseas expansion. It would up-end the entire timeline. It also didn't appear in our own history until relatively late. Outposts were established for the purpose of trade, resources and military projection, not lebensraum.

The still afloat Goblin Homeland is off limits, as is Lindwurm and Vanawil. Zirnatrog, being overrun with Wila rednecks smacking each other with axes is next door to Vanawil so is protected by the Sidhe.

Vilous has no opposition, but is a craphole. The terrain is dominated by steppes, desert, jungle, and swamp. The sole inhabitants are primitive, murderous beastmen and other degenerates with nothing worth trading for. Plus, as soon as you exterminate one tribe of sergals or gnolls another one will be attacking your outpost. A few fortified outposts, long since fallen and now only ruins at best was the extent of influence.

Solaris has pre-Aurelian cultures and the humans seem a promising lot. The fertile northern plains seem especially receptive to foreign ideas, with the central area a bit more cautious but eager to trade for foreign goods. The mountainous southern region is a bit harder to crack as the tribes there are wary of outsiders and the terrain is difficult to traverse and explore. Solaris is also easily reachable by all three empires without the difficulty of navigating the northern passage of Vilous.

Everoc occupies a central position between the Sidhe and the Faestir and is a rich territory filled with an advanced, sophisticated people. Unfortunately that means operations on their territory require dwarf permission. The dwarves had an Imperial Era that ended with the destruction of their capital Boatmurdered by unknown forces. It probably arose as a result of the fortresses agreeing to unite under foreign pressure during the Age of Three Empires. Boatmurdered was lost centuries later and the dwarves show no interest in reuniting. Questions about this will lead to an elaborate metaphor about a mine that is too interconnected by tunnels becoming structurally weak.

Bowing to pressure/pestering from the Sidhe and Goblin Empires, the dwarves offered the opportunity to open up trading ports in the Nodrak region. The Faestir did not take advantage of this offer. Or if they did their freeport was left in ruins and forgotten during the near-genocide they suffered during the Kobold Uprising. The dwarves care little for who lives on the surface of their homeland as long as the inhabitants pay rent and don't interfere with dwarven affairs. Everoc would be an inviting place for Faestir refugees to settle during the dark days when the entire continent of Lindwurm seemed lost to kobold armies driven by a nightmare out of the past.

Aright, these Warped Spear guys.

The first and most basic benefit of the class, I think, would be increased vitality; maybe a bonus equal to your Warped Spear level to all poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death and necromancy effects, and d12 HD. Also +10% lifespan per level. Same BAB and saves as Fighters.

Every other level, a +2 bonus to Str, Dex or Con decided by the DM, based on the character's "style". Levels in between those, one selection from a range of mutations; stuff like natural armour, breath weapon, senses, movement, immunities, damage reduction. Maybe split them in two: select from lesser mutations in the first half of class progression and greater ones in the second.

For final level, maybe some strong fast healing, regeneration? Unaging?

>>314118

Maybe a weaker BAB.

>>314118
I think this would work better as a template, honestly.

Anonymous 2010/08/01(Sun)18:12 No. 4122 ID: 291e07
File 12807115331.jpg - (920.53KB , 1280x625 , forshame.jpg )

>>314120

That sort of defeats the purpose. There are plenty of templates around already, in any case. And lots of other "turn into something" prestige classes.

In other news; this is ff9 fanart, obviously, but I thought I'd drop it here. BEHOLD THE SHAMEFUL CONSEQUENCES OF INEBRIATION:

LOSS OF HATS!!!!

Anonymous 2010/08/01(Sun)23:08 No. 4124 ID: 4ae7b5
File 128072929839.jpg - (69.45KB , 350x530 , Larcen de la Scarlette.jpg )

>>314122
"Oh my~ That is wrong isn't it... in broad daylight too? He does have a taste for the adventure. Now, I wonder what I couldn't slip into some silly little thing's drink to such ends?"

>>314085
>If that includes the military as well, that's going to be at least a couple of hundred faestir, plus families.
Well yes. The governors would have full households, they were noble.

>You seem like you're stretching a bit to maintain the idea that faestir would keep an extremely low presence in the lands they have taken responsibility for.
I have stretched nothing. There is no reason that they would have had anything other than a low presence.
>Although their main objective is only to clean up the mess left by the Draconians, part of that cleaning is to try and reintroduce things like law and learning and the infrastructure of civilization.
Not according to anything we've thus far talked about. So far, we've had no real discussion of Faestir motivations during the Age of Three Empires, but they have generally been represented as pursuing resources, and thus it would be reasonable to assume that their imperialism was much like that of the Romans, and British, in that they conquered to assure beneficial trade agreements, and of course to procure draconian artifacts. No wider altruism has been implied, nor has the idea that they view draconians in such a negative light that post-draconian world is a mess in nead of cleaning.

>Second to that, recall as well that at this point the faestir have a focus on the military in their culture as well. The Vaess, who are warriors by nature, are at the top of their society, and their books and children's stories and such are all going to be about people who went out to fight for the cause of peace and to earn fame and fortune in exotic far-off places.
The cause of peace is something that has thus far not been mentioned. The rest of this is true, but is largely incidental.

>They're going to want to get out there themselves!
Out there in this case refers to the front, not pacified territories.

>>314088
I like this Everoc Faestir group. Perhaps some old Vaess governor felt he had been spurned by whoever requested he return to to Opossokarthel to battle the kobolds, and as such remained in Everoc.

Regarding imperial spread:
I'm thinking things were more sea-based than land based. The Sidhe controlled Vanawil, the Goblins controlled their continent, and the Faestir controlled central Lindwurm. These were their core territories. Other than that, they mostly controlled coasts, and land near to coasts, though the Faestir probably controlled most of the surface of Everoc.

>>314120
>>314118
I'd want it as a 4e paragon path, since I don't play 3.5 much these days. I don't really know how to go about that though, so I'll leave for later, or for someone else.

Cruxador 2010/08/02(Mon)16:15 No. 4127 ID: 3a289a
File 128079090714.png - (1.47MB , 1970x1000 , US3empires.png )

Here's a three empires influence map. Does this look right to everyone?

>>314122
The class should probably grant some extra abilities and refine the existing ones, but I see no reason not to have it as a template as well.
>>314127
I bleev the faestir had more of the blasted wasteland left after the draconians blew everything up, at least in claim.

>>314130
In claim, perhaps, but nobody really has been able to get in there without dying in any real numbers since the fall of the Draconians. This is why it's one of our prime adventuring locales.

>>314127
I just noticed something.
What were the Toltecatl doing at this time?
I mean, they'd have to be in some kind of swamp to develop the way they did, and all the swamps would have been majorly buggered up by the Great Fuckup...
Were some of them inland enough to avoid it (possibly gaining a racewide desire for preknowledge of things, leading to the hoarding of information?) or did they wash that high, or what?
Or were they just kind of sitting in stasis? Or still working out which end of the rock was sharp?
I think the doobies should probably be left alone, though, for several reasons.
Firstly, to obscure their origins.
Secondly, because I have this image of several distinct exploratory groups stumbling across them and then just erasing the notes.
"Do you really want to go down in the Book of Far Lands as the Royal Explorer who found... this?"
"...Let's take our chances with the gnolls to the north a bit, I'm sure some of the tribes there haven't been catalogued properly."

Maybe their swamps getting flooded and going from freshwater to brackish? That would be very major...

>>314141
Earlier discussion suggested that the current swamps were created by the Great Fuckup.

Other than that, fuck if I know.

>>314143
Expanded rather than created I think.

The cataclysm would have been...well catastrophic to the Toltecatl. Earthquakes, massive floods, tidal waves are going to screw up even an amphibious species.

We can borrow a page from the Illithiad and say whatever they were before the Great Fuckup is irrelevant. That event focused and changed their culture into what is now. The Illithiad decided to wage war on the hated surface dwellers while the Toltecatl were inspired to follow PROGRESS!

How we get from Point A to Point B is a bit cloudy, but it seems to fit. PROGRESS! is a big idea and in story-logic big things should have big causes.

>>314145
The Library of Rs is very strongly hinted to be a preexisting Draconian structure, and there also exists the idea that Quetzal, a fallen Draconian, remains inside it in a form of stone and is occasionally able to answer questions. This seems like an entirely viable catalyst to change the Toltecatl from a barbaric group of swamp dwellers to their current form.

>>314146
Possibly. I'm not saying I concur, but the Great Library of Rs is a vast complex of hermetically sealed stone temples extending across acres. And the Toltecatl do have the severed head of Baphomet inside (instead of Quetzal, ala the Templars).

Who would build such a complex? A vast stone complex in swamp sealed against all elements. Why? What hidden agenda might be served?

Not staking anything out, but Toltecal seem pretty flexible at this point. I think we should explore all options from the mundane to enigmatic strategems.

>And the Toltecatl do have the severed head of Baphomet inside (instead of Quetzal, ala the Templars).
...I must have missed this. When did this happen? Why do they have the severed head of Baphomet? Who is this Baphomet fellow, and why are we using that name when we're already using Bahamut, which in RL mythology was merely a different regionalization of the same name?

>>314148
Chill out. In our history the Knights Templar were accused of worshipping the Head of Baphomet as an excuse for their suppression. It seemed to fit better with a hidden temple artifact than Quetzal during my idle musings.

>>314149
>Hidden Temple Artifact

...One of the batshit insane theories needs to be an idol of an ape made of silver now.

>>314149
I'm entirely chill, those were honest questions. I perceived that as an assertion rather than as an idle musing. My apologies.

In that case, while there is an interesting thematic link there, I'm not sure how we could work it in and make it integrate with the idea of the Toltecatl as a whole.

Anonymous 2010/08/07(Sat)21:29 No. 4155 ID: 87d925
File 128124176826.jpg - (58.25KB , 600x600 , Dragonborn.jpg )

>>314151
>>...One of the batshit insane theories needs to be an idol of an ape made of silver now.

Drew a complete blank there until I googled it. Well played Anon.

Thinking more about the Totlecatl it occurs to me that there is a lot of misinformation about them. Until recently the inhabitants of Vilous were nothing but objects of contempt. That changed after Rain united the Sergals and it was discovered that the Toltecatl had mastered lifewarping centuries ago.

Now rumors surround the lizardmen. Previously thought of as beasts comically aping their betters, they are now the focus of much interest and speculation. Two theories are currently popular.

1) The Toltecatl did not build the Library of Rs. In fact they have barely added to it. Those ignorant swamp dwellers could not create such a vast stone complex. It is a Draconian warehouse left behind when that race went extinct. The Toltecatl are poorly copying the actions of a race far better than them with their quest for PROGRESS! The proof is that their is nothing else like it in their territory, or in any other nation for that matter.

Myth Status: BUSTED! (Always open to veto, and like all rumors ineradicable regardless of truth.) Rs was built by the Toltecatl following the Great Fuckup. They haven't built anything else like it because they already have one.

2) The Toltecatl have the severed head of Quetzal, Bahamut, the real Doctor Bellomere, and/or Elvis in Rs.

Myth Status: Undetermined. Nobody but the archivists of Toltecatl get inside Rs so nobody knows what is in there. But it is huge, they have been stuffing it full of knowledge for centuries and rumors do leak out.

The idea that the Toltecatl have the head of Bahamut is a Faestir conceit. It is dismissed by other naturalists studying the Toltecatl as propaganda.

That the lizardfolk have some kind of Draconian artifact in their possession is quite possible. The evidence comes from interviews with Toltecatl who occasionally make reference to "novel/relevant/wisdom (present tense) from the past (irrelevant tense, implying antiquity)" contained within Rs. Discussions of such wisdom are vague but often involve harsh truths, suggesting an artifact of Quetzal himself or his faction.

Superstition that the head or petrified body of one of the Scaled Court lies within Rs are nonsense. It is more commonly believed that the Toltecatl may have possession of a Draconian artifact capable of answering questions in some limited way.

The Faestir, considering themselves the heirs of the Draconians, deliberately inflame their populace with baseless propaganda suggesting the head of their founder lies within the temple/library of one of their many competitors for Draconian artifacts.

>>314157
This is beautiful. Everything seems right about how it portrays the Toltecatl.

The only thing that seems less certain is the Faestir - it portrays them as attributing more power to the Toltecatl than I can see them really wanting to do. Since it looks like we've got Rs nailed down fairly perfectly, I don't mind deviating a bit to ask you guys' thoughts on what the Faestir's attitude to others is.

Even though the Faestir have received a disproportionate amount of attention lately.

>>314158
>>Even though the Faestir have received a disproportionate amount of attention lately.

They are fun and the karmic wheel always circles around. Still it's not like we have even defined the most basic question about the Faestir (or I missed it). What is their government like?

Do they have a Queen or King? A Parliament? A House of Lords? They are probably pretty close to 19th century Britain for flavor. Restricted franchise but a democracy of sorts. Probably not a royal family though as most of the Vaess died fighting Tiamat and her kobold armies.

Besides, they were created by Bahamut himself. Pretending any mortal Faestir could occupy his place in their hearts is sheer folly.

>>314159

I imagine they'd have a ruling council of ministers and a parliament. No king since none is vain enough to take the title that rightfully belongs to the Draconians, but they wouldn't have an empty throne waiting for Bahamut's return either, the way the sergal wait for Rain; it's not really their style. A republic, with wealthy merchants and military commanders forming most of the parliament and the voting body.

>>314159
Perhaps the Queen could be the last of the Vaess, an old woman who is (mostly) no longer capable of combat, and thus purely a political figure.

>>314162
>old

The Vaess were supposed to be ageless, weren't they? It'd be better going the EMPRAH route and having her be disabled by some persistent magical injury.

also what are you crazy there are never ever any old women in rpgs ever its the LAW

>>314164
Wait, are the Vaess literally ageless? I thought they just lived really long...

>>314165

Well, consider. Bahamut had no idea how long the fighting would go on - with draconians, it could have settled into some millenia-long slog. Add on the possibility of weapons that age their targets, or traps that transport your army to another dimension for x-ty hundred years, and agelessness is basically another inoculation. And leaving game mechanics aside, death by "old age" is actually death by disease or biological malfunction, the kind of thing that the Vaess would have been made immune to.

Add on to that that the Vaess couldn't make more of themselves (thus requiring them to breed with the faestir) and I just assumed it was the case, because what sort of sucky race can't breed and dies of age?

http://www.web-writer.net/fantasy/

Hope this helps in any way.

>>314171
The Vaess can breed. They interbred with the other children of Reis. And presumably they bred with each other too.

>>314174
Looks like most of the stuff it talks about id stuff we already got. But this
>Listen to how different syllables sound to you. Do they excite you?
is great.

Also. I have a name for the world to put forward.

Alluvium.

>>314188
Okay...

Why Alluvium?

>>314189

Other than I was looking for a world name?

>Alluvium (from the Latin, alluvius, from alluere, "to wash against") is loose, unconsolidated (not cemented together into a solid rock), soil or sediments, eroded, deposited, and reshaped by water in some form in a non-marine setting.

I thought it sounded like a fairly close definition of the world itself. To a degree, at least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alluvium

>>314191
I'm aware of what the word means.
I just don't see how it fits in particular.

I also question the wisdom of taking a word and making it the name, rather than using syllables from different words or whatever.

A name isn't necessary. We've gone for quite some time without one. It would be convenient in certain cases though.

Alluvium as a synonym for Earth is OK, but doesn't really sing. Trying various English-Latin translations for relevant words like <unified setting son daughter child traditional games four chan> yields <unified occasus filius filia parvulus institutio venatus quattuor chan> which also lack punch.

Maybe another language?

Is 1d4chan down? I'm trying to access it to look over everything, and it's down.

Halp?

>>314208
It does indeed appear to be down.

1d4chan is back up for anyone who wants to make a local copy of the Unified Setting pages.

Hey, here's an idea: What if magic doesn't work in the sea?There's no sea god, so it makes sense that way, and the only natural denizens of the sea are far realms folks who use psionics. The Jareths can have palaces which are not full of sea water, and their magic can still work but be unable to escape their palaces... until the PCs are powerful enough to fight the Jareths, anyway, at which point they find a way to work around that.

>>314780
Eeh...
I like the reasoning, but perhaps a difficulty thing would be better? Mostly because I'd like to see some variance with the goblins.
Or do you mean submerged?

>>314781
Yes, I mean submerged... what did you think I meant?

>>314783
Sorry, the unclearness was on my end. I have to deal with people with preposition trouble a bit.

On the other hand...
What about the Leviathan powers from the Reistir?
I can see them being a notable exception...

...
Dude.
Add another factor, with somewhat attuning seawater to the magic that IS down there, necromancy. Goes with the tainted-water-ooze orcs, and implies bad things if you send too many people to sleep with the fishes. And gives the Illithiad something else to hate the Jareths for.

>>314784
>What about the Leviathan powers from the Reistir?
Hmm. Does Leviathan actually have anything to do with the sea at this point? I suppose Leviathan could be purely freshwater influencing. We wouldn't explicitly specify that, though.

>>314784
>Add another factor, with somewhat attuning seawater to the magic that IS down there, necromancy. Goes with the tainted-water-ooze orcs, and implies bad things if you send too many people to sleep with the fishes. And gives the Illithiad something else to hate the Jareths for.
Hmm. No, I don't think I like associating it directly with necromancy. I much better like the idea of associating it with the Illithid psionics and stuff. So it's like 4e's far realms conceit, except it's the ocean. And that's just the way it is.

>>314788
If seawater blocks magic, then how do the Ghost Ships work? Every fallen goblin ship can't conveniently hit a Jareth stronghold.

>>314789
I dunno. Maybe they sink, are animated by Bongo Bongo, and rise again?

>>314790
I find it hard to believe that the entire seafloor is necromantically charged.
One could have all the ships be those kept in the fallen cities...
Or even that the Jareths make scouting forays into the deeps to grab ships before they rot entirely, drag them back to the citadels, and raise them there.
Maybe seawater saps magic instead?

>One could have all the ships be those kept in the fallen cities...
>Or even that the Jareths make scouting forays into the deeps to grab ships before they rot entirely, drag them back to the citadels, and raise them there.
Sure, those work.

>>314791
>Maybe seawater saps magic instead?
I'm not clear on the distinction...

>>314792
>sapping and negating
Negating would be "Alright, you fall over the edge and can't cast spells."
Sapping would be more like "Alright, you fall over the edge, give me a wisdom roll to avoid losing spell power."
Having magic gradually decay, instead of immediately ceasing function in seawater.

>>314793
Oh, you mean specifically with regards to rule mechanics. I dunno. I was thinking more that magic can't pierce the salt water, making it possible to cast self-oriented spells, but other things would have trouble. Possibly spells with a direct tactile component would work, but there would be salt in between a touch so maybe a roll should be required there? I dunno.

>>314794
Well, to turn to science for an analogy, is it a magic insulator, or a conductor good enough to act as a magic-sink?

>>314796
Oh, an insulator. Maybe some sink, but that would be the sort of thing that would be significant over the course of hundreds of years, it's not something we'd need rules for.

>>314797
Still, it could cause some problems with just throwing artifacts into the sea to get rid of them.
Granted, 'Race to the Cliffs to get rid of the Dark Sword Chocowaffle before Night Falls' is an interesting quest, but less so when the party brings a tank of seawater for sealing away anything cursed.

On that note, separate out curses as their own thing, or as subsections of the various forms of magic, or what?

>>314822
Well, the artifact would still work when it comes out again. So throwing it into the sea is only a good idea if it's exerting some sort of passive influence on everything (or some significant subset thereof) and nobody is likely to dive in there and get it.

Luckily, diving in there and getting it is not very easy, especially if you drop it somewhere deep.

what about a small saltwater lake? if it acts as a mild sink then i am willing to bet if the lake is rumored to boost healing spells, then over the years from everyone using it for the purpose it eventually will as it becomes super charged with healing magic.

>>314824
It's magic, not technology.

>>314824
I'd think that it would do nothing.

Or perhaps, if we want to preserve some facsimile of natural law, the magic could gradually turn the water fresh.

Hey so it came up in a thread on the other /tg/ that Bongo Bongo is basically the only derivative thing left (excluding dwarfs, humans, sergals, and gnolls).

So maybe we should rename him?

>>315119
Whew, I didn't want to bump it off 666 posts hidden.

Anyway
Hmmm.
Very few should know of him to begin with, and fewer still know his actual name in the tongue of the Jareths...
I think the DRUMS IN THE DEEP should work for the moment.

>>315120
>>I think the DRUMS IN THE DEEP should work for the moment.

Not really evocative though. I like the idea that the name of the Frankengod that holds the Outside invaders in check is unknown. That knowledge was lost along with the goblin homeland. Heck, in the last desperate days of the invasion nobody knew what the goblins were up to. The survivors only have a vague idea that their race did something epic that saved the world, but at a terrible cost. The pulsing beat of the deeps is a new, strange and terrible phenomenon to all who encounter it.

Drummer in the deep is a bit too literal though. It would work for the dwarves who are nothing if not literal, but it needs some poetry.

I gave it a whirl with an English to Latin translator, but the best I could come up with was Pello Profundus. Sounds good, but beat as in rhythm came across as hitting so it means To Hit Deep.

>>315128
Well, the important thing is that it's a phenomenon rather than an anthropomorphic force.
But it's probably too complicated for a simple heartbeat...
Perhaps multiple hearts?
Cthonic Pulse?
Dark Rhythm?

And how widely known and accepted is it? A tall tale dorfen miners tell each other? A phenomenon you can hear everywhere, but especially Everoc because the dorfen diggings go deeper? Three dorfs know about it, and drink away the memories?

>>315129
Bongo Bongo ain't so bad a name for now. Essentially, most PCs wouldn't need to know or care about it, and the GM would be hard pressed to create a scenario in which the name was discovered, aside from having an adventure during the Great Fuckup where the players are helping escort a necromancer to the Goblin Isle in face of the Outsiders and their effects.
The whole point of naming it Bongo Bongo is because we have decided that its form is that of Bongo Bongo from LOZ, and t makes for a good, familiar yet haunting placeholder.
I agree that we need a name for the effect of the drumming, something that could be referenced too in the more 'Call of Cthulhu' style of adventures in the US.
The Death March? The Song That Ends The World? The Heart of Wotan for the more confused philosophers?
Hell, who still knows about Bongo Bongo anyhow? The Totlcatl, and maybe some goblins?
Does he even interfere in any way? I was under the impression that all he is a construct made of our materials and outsider power with the singular purpose of trapping any invading outsiders in the Entropic Beat of Time, the Universe, and Everything.
...Entropic Beat sound good?

>>314822
That being said, the Illithiad are in an unending war with the Goblin Lich Kings under the sea, so would not they be able to hear/detect the beat of BOngo Bongo pretty much consistently?
And if we intend on doing the whole sea-water=/=magic, then what about Illithiad lifewarping magic?
Maybe we should have it so that they have their own version of lifewarping that is psionic rather than magical?
I like the idea of Illithiad convincing the minds of their minions to alter their own bodies, with suicidal buffs by removing built in limiters, or destructive shutdowns by triggering a full chemical overdose, especially in potentially poisonous or explosive creatures. PUFFERFISH GRENADE!

>>313537
>>314784
I personally like the idea of the whole 'ocean flows with necrotic energy'; remember when we thought that Bongo Bongo should be made out of the unmentioned Ocean God?
Not actually pervasive in the whole ocean, just on the seafloor mostly, settling in trenches and carried along in some of the currents, and it only really show in the Sea of Ghosts, as expected, where you can expect spectral apparitions to appear before an undead force arrives.

It would make for an interesting show for the players if every couple of years a deep sea current rises up more into the shallows, causing zombies to crop up on the shores of islands and the Furnshakt, which would be where the goblin undead-hunters would spend much of their time at these times.

When are we going to get around to talking about the meteorology and oceanography of the US, anyhow? We have geography, but no real understanding of the persistent ecological and geological cycles that maintain these environments.

>>313564
>>313565
>>313568
I notice that the whole Fae/Outsider/Gentry thing was never resolved, so here is my take on the issue:
-The Fae are inter universal entities that are essentially the multidimensional versions of butterflies, as in they will go from universe to universe doing whatever, but aways causing waves of change due to their nature as a technical 'Outsider' and their own reality warping fun.
-The Outsiders are literal extra universal beings that would be the equivalent of natural semi-harmless cosmic entities from whatever universe the Gentry may be found, and were drawn here by the Jareths doing a necromantic equivalent of 'digging too deep' for the lulz.
-The Gentry, from all I can read about their behavior, are extra universal beings that are what /tg/ would be if our suggestions had REAL power on the worlds we quested in, meaning that the gentry are effectively us, or another universe's version thereof.

All three forms are 'outsiders' to our universe, and the only ties they have to our own are the inter universal energies that naturally ebb and flow throughout the multiverse. This same energy is only harnessable by specific ritual and control devices but I can definitely see the 'madness/insanity' that beings such as Tiamat experience would inherently weaken the dimensional barriers around their souls that would normally shield them from said energies, paving the way for outsider influence or powers.

Note: At this rate the Unified Setting is going to have more and deadlier HFS than DorfFortress! Are we making the world a little TOO dangerous for its own survival?

>>315130
Samefag here.

Minor Writefaggotry In response to:
>>313525
I just made this up, no prior knowledge. Have Dante's Inferno on my mind.
The tenth level, right after the ninth, is the Oubliette.
The Pit Of Oblivion, prison of the Everfalling.
To reach the tenth level is to breach the ice of the Ninth level.
To SAFELY access the tenth level is to tap the ice along with the beat of Bongo Bongo.
You will fall through the cracked ice to the edge of the tenth level, where you may portal/planar shift beyond the reach of normal magics, due to the flow of multiuniversal 'outsider' energies there.

>>315129
>>And how widely known and accepted is it? A tall tale dorfen miners tell each other? A phenomenon you can hear everywhere, but especially Everoc because the dorfen diggings go deeper? Three dorfs know about it, and drink away the memories?

>>315130
>>I agree that we need a name for the effect of the drumming, something that could be referenced too in the more 'Call of Cthulhu' style of adventures in the US.
The Death March? The Song That Ends The World? The Heart of Wotan for the more confused philosophers?
Hell, who still knows about Bongo Bongo anyhow? The Totlcatl, and maybe some goblins?

We could assume the Toltecatl know EVERYTHING. They have been gathering information for centuries underneath everyone's noses. But the Librarians only release what they think will lead to PROGRESS. Secret wars are fought in the stacks over whose vision will emerge triumphant.

The dwarves of Everoc know of course, but like most uncanny things it is something they prefer not to discuss. There are dwarves who pay too much attention to the Drummer in the Deep and are overtaken by fey moods. Keeping them out of the mines for a time usually cures that, but sometimes more... direct measures are required.

Magic isn't physics. The Heart of Wotan (I like that name, it tries to put a happy face on things) is not only heard in the deeps. Strange places can often channel the sounds of the deep to the surface. Faintly and only to the sensitive. But the call is heard and cthonic cults are the result.

The barbarians of Furnshakt probably also know. Their ways are strange and savage, but they are also closer to the gods than anyone else. If they hear the call they pay it no mind. The mindless thrumming of an undead god pales in significance compared to the demands of the vigorous spirits of nature that they give allegiance to.

>>315130
>>When are we going to get around to talking about the meteorology and oceanography of the US, anyhow? We have geography, but no real understanding of the persistent ecological and geological cycles that maintain these environments.

It has been touched upon. Check out the entry on Blodsvargen under Everoc on the 1d4chan wiki. It has been mentioned a few other times as well. Magical volcanic ash from the Water Forest fertilizing/mutating Zirnatrog being one example.

I think we ignored hemispheric currents and decided all winds bear west to east. This has the benefit of sidestepping the question "Is this the whole world?"

>>I notice that the whole Fae/Outsider/Gentry thing was never resolved, so here is my take on the issue:

Well the Fae and the Gentry are the same things (THINGS! HORRIBLE THINGS! THE THINGS THEY MADE ME DO! I SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO THE CORGYN!) just different names for the torturers of Everoc.

The Outsiders are... well nobody is quite sure. The goblins opened the door for them, stopping them caused the Great Fuckup and they haven't been heard from since. There was an effort to link them to the Gentry, but I'm resistant to unified field theories in RPGs. Blank spaces on the map are the friend of creativity.

>>315129
>And how widely known and accepted is it? A tall tale dorfen miners tell each other? A phenomenon you can hear everywhere, but especially Everoc because the dorfen diggings go deeper? Three dorfs know about it, and drink away the memories?
Probably all dwarves no of it, but few have been deep enough to experience it. Other races likely tend to discredit it.

>>315130
>Maybe we should have it so that they have their own version of lifewarping that is psionic rather than magical?
I thought it was always like that. They've always been psionic and not magical.

>necrotic energy
This is pretty awesome. Necrotic energy, as a trope, is sort of lame. But if we combine this with the antimagic... People can't die properly in the ocean? Thus they're always undead. The main problem with this is that we already have the Necrostorms.

The Illithid would die properly, because they're purely psionic, there's no magic to them. At the bottom, Bongo Bongo's power wells up.

>When are we going to get around to talking about the meteorology and oceanography of the US, anyhow? We have geography, but no real understanding of the persistent ecological and geological cycles that maintain these environments.
We'll get around to it as soon as someone posts thoughts on it. We've talked about things with immediate effects already.

>I notice that the whole Fae/Outsider/Gentry thing was never resolved,
I'm pretty sure we agreed that they are fundamentally the same thing. All your suggestions work great, though. The distinction just ought to be a vague one.

The multiversal implications are bad though. The various types of fair folk merely come from elsewhere. Considering things beyond that trivializes the situation.

>>315135
>We could assume the Toltecatl know EVERYTHING.
Not literally everything. Some things, even they wouldn't know.

>The barbarians of Furnshakt probably also know.
I don't get it. Why would they possibly know of it?
>Their ways are strange and savage, but they are also closer to the gods than anyone else.
They're closer to their own gods, but Bongo Bongo is deep bellow the Earth, and the barbarians are on the surface. They'd be no more able to hear it than anyone else on the surface.

>>315136
>There was an effort to link them to the Gentry, but I'm resistant to unified field theories in RPGs.
They're horrible things from elsewhere, with dynamic forms. It makes sense that they'd be linked by anyone who knew of the goblin's war, the Draconian war, and the normal course of things in Everoc. (also, conceptually, these were all the same thing from the beginning. I wouldn't care to split them up just to avoid a unified theory about things which are unified in every way anyway.)

CHECK THIS SHIT OUT RIGHT NOW!
Read the part for Archivist!
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/collaborators/work-area/apg/bard-alternate-class-features

TotlCatl Archivist abilities, anyone?

Alright, so burial at sea pretty much just feeds the Jareth war machine.
Does anyone realise this other than the goblins, and how do goblins work people dying at sea?
Doubtful anyone else would pick it up...

>>315157
I can see the goblins destroying their dead with boom jelly, definitely, especially since it would continue to burn on the surface of the ocean.

Oh dear, I can see a sea of fire keeping an armada of undead ghost-ships from assaulting the goblin isles...

>>315154
Sure, I guess. I don't do much 3.5 anymore. It could be adapted to a decent couple feats, too.

>>315157
Even goblins might not know.

>>315165
That is not very economical. At worst, why not just bury their dead on land? They have to cart the corpses around, sure, but it can be done.

So, is anyone running any Unified Setting games? I certainly wouldn't mind DMing one set in Lindwurm. 3.5 rules but maybe GURPs if i cba to learn it.

>>315174
If you run that I would totally play it. GURPS and 4e would both be better choices than 3.5 for it, since the US actively rejects some of the conventions inherent to 3.5. 4e would require finishing the 4e race stats, though.

>>315176
Looks like im learning GURPS then! I'll monitor this thread to see if anyone else is interested. If I get a few more people I'll drop my email in and we can get it started.

>>22
Could someone link to the old thread?

>>315521
http://www.tgchan.org/tg/res/592.html

Anonymous 2010/11/25(Thu)00:12 No. 5556 ID: 099247
File 12906727598.jpg - (113.84KB , 1270x222 , Lindwurm.jpg )

Map for the Lindwurm campaign! We're still looking for players so if you're interested just hit Mokai up on #tgchan.

>>315556
Did the game ever take off? How did it work out?

Great map by the way.

>>316691
Never took off.

I suppose the archive of the threads from 4chan are completely gone?

>>10867
Looks like they got downvoted into oblivion on suptg.