>>63544
Earlier in some part of the discussion threads or something I think Ed said we could build carriers/battleships from the engine forward so that we could partially complete them and still have them able to fly, with like a small bridge attachment, although not combat worthy.

If we really want to gain in efficiency we are pretty much limited to looking at stuff on the ground at this point. We could get a fair amount of benefit from researching massive versions of some of our most worker intensive building types, since they are like 20% more efficient to build and run than large buildings, and right now we can't afford to implant everyone with neural implants anyways, even if we had the infrastructure set up to do so. Costs like 12000 sc to get everyone implanted, or in a more conservative number about 1800 to implant all our nonworkers not currently in training. So even though we can have casualty free neural implants with memory mods in 6 turns or so, we might want to consider putting some research into Massive Derricks or Factories, maybe Massive Luxury Complex for housing, since we still need a lot of resources for implantation. And then we also need implantation points from hospitals to do the actual implanting, and currently we have...1 small medical outpost. So with medical districts, the large version of hospitals, we get 9 IP per turn which means 90 people can be implanted. We probably need Massive Medical Districts if we intend to ramp up implanting, in addition to the superconductors we need to build the things. I'm rambling but basically we need more resources to turn our nonworkers into productive members of society. We should reevaluate our research path after this next update comes up and we find out what we can learn from the Breaker ships.

We should probably have the Contemno head over to Conrix to be refitted with Warp 3 and then send it out to scout Incipient, since that's the only universe available to us we haven't been to that isn't either dangerously close to Totus' primary universe or completely exhausted of usable resources ('Home'). We know that the Breakers outnumber us in this universe given the information our new alien friends gave us. I want to help them but I don't think we can safely take on what, four capital ships? And a handful of destroyers and escorts. We need either a bigger tech advantage or a lot more ships.

MINOR AUTOMATION - You can reduce the amount of workers (not professionals) a building needs by up to 10%, at a cost of 2 SC and 10 METAL for 10 workers.

Is this tech actually being used or did we just research it forever ago and then forget we had it?

>>63617
I believe we used it a couple times then wound up with more Workers than we needed, and so it's not worth the SC anymore. Professionals are our bottleneck.

Mobile orbital factories are still 50 RP, right?

How fast massive OF will be?

So I just noticed the little bit of text from when we got Disruptive Shell describing how many shells ships actually require. I thought we needed like 16 shells to cover everything but actually we need like 60. That's a lot of shells! Shells for our buildings would cost even more than that, although if we researched massive buildings we could cut that number down a lot, potentially.

I'm thinking we might want to send the Galts a few hundred SC. We have a couple SC derricks coming online next turn so we could probably spare them some to get some actual spaceships online so they could actually start some SC mining operations of their own. I think that volcanic planet isn't that far from them? It has SC. We could make up what we sent them in a few turns and it could speed up their transition to a war footing by a LOT more than that. If we want ships to fight the Breakers guarding the colonial organism guys we should probably do SOMETHING to speed up the rate at which the Galts can help us build ships. Given how effective our weapons were, it looks like we wouldn't even need that many more ships to have really good odds against the Breaker guard fleets, if they had Shells. Also we can have them build Diplomats for us. Those are really effective and we are going to need a lot of them.

these we only small ships, we have no idea how their shield tech scales. it could be exponential for all we know, and a breaker battleship is thousands of times tougher then a frigate. if we are lucky it's linearm but it would still need a significantly larger amount of firepower to punch through. at the moment the only thing i have a reasonable hope of punching through a the shields of the battlehship is a moon cannon. if we could make an even bigger gun, and mount it to our own battlehship, THEN i will let us fight a larger fleet and not be scared as hell.


also, the battleship would be named the yamato.

>>64700
About the soonest we could get a new battleship is 4 years, and that's sort of optimistic since we probably don't want to start building a battleship on a planet they already found. We will know how their shield tech scales a lot earlier than that...given our current rate of research we will have another 3000 RP by the end of those four years. Somehow I doubt the breaker shields are a 2000 RP tech.

Also I didn't really mean attack now, I meant finish more shells, get more diplomats (we can swap out a warpslug cannon for a diplomat pod on any of our ships) probably get some more bombers for our Carrier to launch since each bomber can launch a single diplomat and a single diplomat can be very significant...but do we really want to wait 4+ years to help these guys? And if we are waiting that long, we definitely need to send the Galts some SC aid, because otherwise they are likely going to lose their homeworld. I really don't want to be responsible for that.

Also we have some options for making the battle go more in our favor. The stealth bombing ship that was proposed a while ago would be able to potentially cripple some Breaker ships before we actually engaged in a full scale battle, and from what we have seen it doesn't seem like the Breakers actually know how to repair their own tech...apparently they leave that sort of thing to a different species in their group...Makers? So any damage we do ahead of time could potentially stay around. We also have Jurokos and Decoy Ship tech, which could be used to set a trap for Breaker fleets, although we would need to actually build some of those.

I do really want a battleship with a really big gun though. Just like build the whole ship around one really big warpslug lance. Is that possible? Also larger ship classes than the battleship potentially would be much more durable because of the way Disruptive Shell scales. I wonder how big a ship would need to be to be immune to the Breaker ship to ship weapons we have encountered so far with Disruptive Shell.

>>64715
Oh boy, my ideas are getting revisited! Yay! Feels like years.

Well, the reason why I developed Juroko mines was as a means to protect key strategic spots. Either as a boost to military might, or as a basic defense for planets. We can very easily set up a 'asteroid belt' mine field around places we want to protect. Decoys can also serve as this. Just set mines up in them.

When it comes to our alien buddies, we should not wait TOO long. Enemies will keep coming and we need to make sure we are able to free them while they still take us lightly and before they use scorched earth tactics. Get the Galt protected, then try freeing one or two of the weakly guarded planets. Shore them up, and continue.

Also, NEVER skimp on making ships. They still have a numbers advantage so we need to keep up the assembly line. A lost ship in a small fleet is too big a lost and the time where they send everyone down on us may soon come. Anti-ship ships are important and I did pitch a few ideas like that before. I can likely find them again and tweak them a bit. I believe they were the Eden-Class Cruiser and the Yamato-Class Battlecruiser.

>>64699
I disagree about the Galts building Diplomats for us. That's currently our strongest technology and having it in the hands of anyone else is risky. Our Warpslug weaponry was comparable in effectiveness anyway, and they have that already.

Right then, since people will likely not remember(or look in the actual thread), here is the design for the Yamato-Class Battle Cruiser and Eden-Class Carrier. Also, because I am nice, have a new idea- the Overlord-Class Carrier

Features: The Yamato is a anti-space battle ship. Spacing the cannons out to deal with enemies from any angle and designing the cannons' mountings to focus more on piercing and penetration power, the Yamato would be designed to smack the ever loving crap out of enemy ships. To drive this home, the Yamato gives up it's orbital bombardment array for the ability to mount a Lunar Cannon Class Cannon (or as many as Ed will allow) on the bow of the ship. After all, why keep the big guns at home? The down side is the specialty piercing rounds would do little damage to ground forces and cause reduced splash. Not only that, but due to the position of the guns, not all of them can fire on the planet effectively. Still, in a battleship vs Yamato fight, the Yamato would have the upper hand... with a big stick in it.

Pros: 1.5x efficiency in space combat.
Better ship armor penetration.
Able to mount Lunar Cannon to ship for combat.

Cons: Can only use half the ship's guns for orbital bombardment.
Splash and area damage of the bombardment is reduced.
No nuclear bombardment array.
-------------------
Simply put, the Eden class would be like a small portable colony by using and modifying the carrier's base design meant for carrying large ammounts of goods and using said space as modular points for buildings. Better climate control, state of the art tech to make it a relatively nice place to live on, and maybe some built in apartments so the crew can live comfortably. I can see this sort of ship hold pretty decent sized buildings or a bit of every type. However, I can also see this thing guzzle gas like a old mini van which would mean any weaponry that uses energy by the buckets or uses alot of space for ammo would be a bad idea. Hell, probably would have a lot less guns too for additional space. It's no planet ship, but it would be better than stuffing a few labs on a couple of ships.

Pros: Designed for the crew to be pretty well cared for so it would likely have a moral boost. Possibly able to deal with larger groups of people without being over crowded.

Modular set up inside so that it can fit various buildings. Not sure how many but likely a good number of mediums or a Large or two.

Cons: Would need gas to move, gas to make power for the buildings, and gas to maintain the living standard. This is NOT a fuel friendly build.

Reduced space to put in more buildings. Got to give and take.

Weaponry would likely be cut back a bit and even then, the reduced space would mean weapons requiring lots of space would be rather unwise to equip.
------------
Overlord- Cruiser Class ship.

Where the Eden is a ship designed for comfort and production, the Overlord is the opposite. Use it's large holds to hold fighters, mobile weapon platforms, and tons of troops for your invasion/boarding needs. This is the sort of ship that does well with robotic... well, EVERYTHING. It's not designed for comfort, mundane storage, or even standard combat. It's a mobile deployment center and it's built for it. Hell, we could likely develope a sort of drop pod for Robotic units(or possibly very strong units) to be rapidly deployed onto the battle site. For the man who loves to rush!

Pros: More Hangers for fighters, mobile weapon platforms, and other such things.
+Designed for rapid release of fighters, and for boarding enemy ships.
+Drop pods for Robots and sturdy units to allow rapid deployment.

Cons: Little space for regular storage.
Not designed for comfort. Will likely annoy and lower moral in civvies.
Space for hangers and boarding zones will likely take up some weapon space.

>>64740
I have a bunch of ship and vehicle ideas but we are about to have access to a Breaker ship for the first time ever and I don't want to spend RP on something that might be obsolete in a few turns if we learn something important from the ship so I'm waiting for a tech tree update very impatiently. bluh

On another note, for some reason we have a TON of unemployed workers on the Archive planet, and I think at some point those guys were on Conrix but were moved over to Hothouse??? Does anyone know why that was done? Because if not they would probably be more useful on Conrix digging up metal/SC or manning another ground factory to produce diplomats/shells.

since plasma is the most effective against shields but not too good against armor.
Would it be possible to make a hybrid weapon that places a small shield breaching amount of plasma in the path of the warpslug slug? (either integrating it into the slug, or making an integrated cannon?)

>>64928
alread had that idea, and went one step further. this is obviously only for extra large shell used by the moon gun but. take a slug, hollow it out and put in magnetic stabilizers. in the core place as much anti-matter as you can. then wrap the whole slug in plasma, when fire the plasma sheath will burn a hole throw the shields for the warpslug to breach, it will then embed in the enemy hull, the pressure of impact will warp it's shape a little breaking the magnetic confinement of the anti-matter letting it free to contact normal matter causing a detonation. being embedded in the enemy ship it would cause massive damage.

>>64932
sounds awesome
... we have anti matter manufacturing and containment tech? since when?

we have anti-matter tech sitting on the tech tree. just need to get it.

>>64938
Not yet. Rudimentary antimatter fab is a 650 RP tech. Still quite a ways away. Probably pretty good, though. Warpslug was only 150 rp, and diplomats another 30.

how many RP for Gester wizards

do we have to catch elves first lets catch some elves

>>66200
Well, magic is apparently powered by Totus so I doubt we'll be able to do much with it unless we can figure out how to hack whatever mechanism he's using to send out the energy. If we do that and start using it in mass quantities, Totus might wind up shutting down all magic.

Which is okay if you ask me.

>>66202
That would be pretty funny, AND render all the Space Elves and Snarrens totally useless.

Man we should research some kind of chemical gas grenade. Also can we use plasma tech to produce some kind of satchel charge? Like an alternate option to the light vehicle rockets maybe?

>>66242
we have gas genades and stuff. we just didn't have any on the ships. cause they are in space.

next time they are back in port we should update their loadouts so they are standard. also large tanks to flood the whole ship with so if the breakers manage to board us instead we can just fill the ship.

>>66244
We don't have a light slot or heavy slot option for chemical weapons, and as for grenades I don't know if we have any that infantry can carry. Probably the Commandos have explosives, but those are spec ops guys and too valuable to risk in direct combat. I also am not sure how heavy a weapon our cyborgs can carry. Can max strength cyborgs carry medium weapons? What about light? Can power troopers carry light slot weapons?

>>66247
We DESPERATELY need some kind of light, automatic chemical weapon. Like, some kind of armorpiercing round that leaves traces of nervegas in wounds or something.

>>66248
We have an infantry slot gasser, but our heavier infantry can use light slot weapons, I think, and we don't have a light slot chemical weapon.

i mean , we HAVE gas grenade BLUEPRINTS but we haven't BUILT any yet. when we get the chance we need to build some.

Ed Pastry 2013/01/26(Sat)11:44 No. 66564 ID: bf45bb
File 135922948920.png - (3.59KB , 259x152 , SHC6.png )

I'd figure I'd clear things up about combat accuracy.

Nearly all infantry and the lightest vehicles only have 1 HP. Commandos/Nightmares, BRICs, MLRS, SPAAGs, Light Gunships have 2 HP. MBTs, APCs, Heavy Gunships have 3 HP. Dropships have 6 HP.

Most infantry and light vehicle weapons, and some medium vehicle weapons, do 1 damage. The rest do 2-3 damage.

The base chance for a unit to avoid weapons fire is %50. There are things that can greatly vary this chance, however.

Things that increase evasion chance:
-Elite soldiers have better evasion
-Having Armor and Shields higher than the Armor Penetration and Shield Penetration of the firing weapon. If the Armor and Shield is high enough, the accuracy can be reduced to less than 0 (e.g. using a basic assault rifle against a tank)
-Taking cover (I noticed I did a poor job of displaying cover in the last combat, I'll improve on this to make it clearer)
-The unit firing upon the target has been fired upon by more than one enemy last turn (i.e. suppressive fire)
-The unit firing upon the target is using Fire on the Move
-The unit firing upon the target is engaged in melee combat
-The unit being fired upon is stealthed or concealed
-The unit being fired upon is moving quickly
-The unit being fired upon is not taking any actions (it is assumed they are spending the time to take cover)

Things that decrease evasion chance:
-The unit firing upon the target is an elite of some kind
-Weapons with specific bonuses against certain targets reduces targets evasion (e.g. flamethrowers vs infantry, auto-targeting missiles vs fast enemies)
-The unit firing on the target is within 2 hexes (this bonus is overridden if it is engaged in melee combat)
-The unit being fired upon is caught off guard
-The unit being fired upon is really big.

Things that don't effect evasion chance:
-Having more Armor Pen. or Shield Pen. than the target has Armor and Shields doesn't further increase the accuracy. (e.g. a railgun shot doesn't have more accuracy than an assault rifle against a totally unarmored opponent)

For aerial combat, fixed wing craft move too fast to really put on the battlefield. Instead, if you bring them to a fight, they are on standby and can be called to perform an operation on the battlefield. You can bring a squadron of Interceptors to clear the skies, or make a bombing run on a certain part of the battlefield. They are not invincible, however. Each enemy AA unit on the battlefield has a chance to gun down operating aircraft. This chance increases if the target operates closer to the AA unit.

Gunships and Dropships are treated mostly the same as ground units.

>>66247
Standard Light Infantry can carry their primary Infantry weapon and one piece of equipment. The light anti-armor missile launcher is the default, but you can ask them to bring whatever you can think of. Grenades, another Infantry weapon, explosives. Whatever you want, let me know what you wish them to carry and I'll tell you what its good for. You won't need to worry about research or producing standard equipment like basic frag grenades, satchel charges or low-tech special guns like sniper rifles. If you want them to bring more exotic things like plasma-based explosives, you'll need to have them built and researched first, though as infantry equipment they'll be rather cheap.

Max strength implanted soldiers and Power Troopers can both carry at most a Light vehicle weapon (miniguns and light plasma cannons). They also can carry the same kit as Light Infantry if you want. If the infantry carry around a Light Vehicle weapon, they don't get to carry around any special equipment due to the large quantity of ammunition they must bring. (This also is makes Light Infantry still viable due to their flexibility in combat, despite their weaker armor and weapon)

>>66564
So Apex Troopers are really good, then, since they get an upgrade to the backup equipment they carry?

Also plasma-based explosives sound pretty good, since even if we later pick up the antimatter fab tech antimatter explosives would probably be really prone to high collateral damage. What sort of RP cost would we have for plasma based explosives?

>>66564
Well that explains why our gunships got shot down so much. They're about as durable as power troopers.

>>66588
same HP different armor.

>>66607
Not seeing anything about power troopers having 2 hp, just Commandos and Nightmares. So I think gunships actually have twice as much HP as power troopers? And also more armor.

>>66650
Oh, dur. You're right.

BRICs have 2 HP... Maybe we should use them more.

>>66663
BRICs seem pretty good with these rules, so yeah we should probably use them more. They are cheap and they have 4 medium weapon slots. Not sure if they can fit onto a boarding mission, though.

okay now that that is over and we havea good chance of galt construction assistance, what do we want them to build? if we can get a mobile ship-yard, then a fair chunk of a battleship done would be good. get built from the ground up with all our new techs. those thick shields and heat-shell armor would mean any attack below a certain threshold would just singe the paint. aka, it could handle just about any number of small ships, or medium ships with smaller guns. if the capture of this breaker ship provides any new info about how to negate the ship sized weapons it may even upgrade to medium attacks do jack squat against it.

>>66925
Well as of right now our real problem is getting ships into the field. Even WITHOUT the OBP penalty ships are made incredibly slowly.

We really need Massive Orbital Shipyards. Even being only 2x as fast would be a huge boon. I don't even care if they're less efficient professional/worker-wise for each OBP we get.

yes, said mobile yard so the galts can dump the mass of BP into it and get a lot of it done, then we ship it out to our planet and continue work there.

>>66936
We researched massive orbital factories, and we have one being built at the moment. It comes up in two turns. They are more efficient than large but when we built our large orbital factories we didn't have massive ones researched yet.

>>66942
Oh shit, I did not realize that. Oh, that's where our spare profs are going! Shit!

>>66925
Disruptive Shells are basically just SC and BP, so if we provide them with the SC we can just have them manufacture those for us WAY faster than we could make them ourselves. Infantry shells are kinda impractical for us to build for ourselves except maybe a few for our commandos, but if we just ship SC to the galts they could outfit basically our whole force with them. Naval shells I'd like to have enough to cover our current fleet, our ships currently under construction, and in addition like, enough for a battleship, maybe? We can also use naval shells to guard buildings from like orbital bombardment or whatever but that would require a LOT of shells. Especially if we don't use massive buildings exclusively.

>>67018
Something to keep in mind is that in order to ask them to build something, we have to share that tech with them.

I dunno if that's something to be worried about, but it's worth paying attention to at least.

>>67028
We should probably share Disruptive Shell, even if we don't intend to share future shield techs. I mean, they need SOME kind of shields, unless our goal is just to get them into a war with the Breakers and then ditch them, which seems both kinda scummy and also probably not the most practical decision. Breakers still outnumber the Galts, even if we give them superior tech.

While agree with making a battleship, we should definitely specialize it for Naval combat. As is, we are going to face more and more enemy ships and in the short term, orbital bombardment would be a bad idea since we are trying to liberate other planets or protect our own.

>>64740
This has the basis for the Yamato design and a few others and would likely cost little to create. Not only that, but in terms of sheer range, the Lunar Cannons are our best bet and having a mobile one could save us a lot of grief by softening targets/removing shields so the diplomats and heavy hitters can strike them down.

Let's talk implants. The idea of implanting the population with neutral implants once we get integrated tactical implant system and memory mod research is attractive but the problem is the logistics. All data here is going off the info here http://tgchan.org/wiki/The_Icon_Construction_Data and the numbers given in >>/quest/315189

Implants costs SC equal to half of the implants produced. Implanting our entire current population will cost 11,159 SC. 69 turns of our current SC production, and that's not mentioning everything else we'll want to use it for. We probably need more SC production anyway.

As for implant point throughput, a medical distract (our largest medical building) would put out 9 implant points per turn, apparently. That's 90 implants per turn per medical district. Which means if we wanted to finish implanting our entire population within, say, the 69 turns it’d take to produce enough SC at current production, we’d need 4 medical districts. (By the way we need 1 and 2/3 large derricks to keep up to 1 medical district or 0.6 medical district per large derrick.)

But what if we only implanted, say, the training capability of a single university? It'd cost 900 SC and 180 implant points per batch of 1800. The main unknown here is just how long memory mods’d shorten that training time to, and thus how quickly we’d need to pump those implants out.

Speaking of, a gestation tank will pop out 600 nonworkers per 6 months. That'd cost 50 SC per month to implant and require 2 medical districts to keep up with the output.

>>68446
Yeah. We could potentially save some time/resources by researching massive buildings appropriate to getting implants for our guys, but the secondary benefits of massive buildings are pretty much impossible to know until we research them. Not sure whether some buildings have massive versions or not, either, like Gestation Tanks, or the Interplanetary Cannons(cannons take 4 turns to build so they are basically a large?). Still, massive versions of derricks, medical districts, maybe universities, and probably ground factories should probably be on our list of things to pick up at some point.

Correction: it's 300 nonworkers per 6 months per gestation tank, not 600. So make that 25 SC per month and 0.55 medical district per gestation tank (decided to be a little more exact there). And, yeah, research into massive derricks and medical buildings would probably be worthwhile.

>>/quest/498478
Is the 8x acceleration given here correct? If so, that means that including the 6 months reduction given by neural implants and assuming no other training time reducers (I'd have to hunt back through all the threads to find out), memory mods'd let us train in 5.25 months. Which matches up surprisingly close to the time it takes for a gestation tank batch.

Anyway, implanting and then training a batch of 1800 every 5.25 months would take 172 SC a month (rounding up) and 35 implant points a month (again, rounding up). So, the output of 6.37 large derricks and 3.88 medical distracts (so we'd need 4 districts, and more derricks in general).

While it's premature to discuss such things in the main thread due to the current crisis, I think in the long term we should set up a training intrastructure consisting of 1 University, 4 medical districts, and enough derricks to produce 172 a month (7 assuming no other modifiers like low/high SC density). Then once the entire population has been converted from nonworkers and some professionals trained (though we want some military, too, of course), we can build 6 gestation tanks to keep the output up. Or possibly less depending on how other sources like natural reproduction and recruitment of aliens increases our numbers. We might end up having to build more universities/derricks/medical districts, but that means we're growing.

Anyway, just a look at some numbers and what it'd take to keep implanting and pumping out university batches.

Addenda: this is based upon the 4 years training figure that I dug up out of the earlier threads. If some factor's changed that number, the math'd have to be redone.

>>68620
It might be 8x acceleration without taking the 6 month reduction into account, so just 6 months. That wouldn't be a huge difference, though.

So implants should still be on our short list of things to research, but we might want to find out what breaker navy/plasma weapons unlocks, since that's probably some kind of naval offensive or defensive tech and we could use something to give us a little more edge against the breakers in space. We need to build up a force capable of freeing the Individual's homeworld, so something capable of taking on 3 Breaker Capital ships, and 10 Escort ships without taking major losses. If we can do that, we can provide the Individual with military tech it can use to hold off the Breakers while we build up ourselves and the Galts. Also the Individual mentioned something about 'Splinter-like' aliens who were 'supernatural' and we might want to track down a couple of those for capture purposes. There is other stuff related to magic on the tech tree we can't access yet that could be very useful against the supernatural worshippers of Totus, and the Individual implied that they had been part of the conflict that ended in it being conquered.

Also gonna dump a bunch of random RP costs for various things here for easy reference.

Massive buildings(DOES include Interplanetary Cannons)40 RP, although Ed said 30 RP the other day? Basing the 40 on the original mention of massive buildings after researching Large Buildings.

Drone Starships that could be used to scout: 35 RP

Stealth Diplomat Ship(Stealth is risky):90 RP

Mobile Orbital Factories: 50 RP

Dryad and Gester Power Armor(so we could train them as Power Troopers): 8 RP each

is Ed dead

>>80551
I haven't seen him in quite some time...

I was considering making a java app that would calculate stuff for The Icon but I was delayed for quite some time because I didn't know how to make a GUI. I think I might be able to manage it now but if Ed isn't interested in questing anymore there's no point.

Miss you, Ed! I love your quests. Hope you come back some day. <3