Here's two links to the main sourcebook I'll be using and referring to, so you can read this shit direct for yourself. It's available as a 'free' PDF:

This is where you (supposedly) can legitimately get it for free if you're signed up with the Steve Jackson Games online store. I generally don't sign up for things online so I couldn't tell you if that's true.
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/ars-magica-4th-edition-core-rulebook

This is where you can really get it for free. If this person's server goes down search for AG0204.PDF, it's a file that's 3,092,751 bytes in size and my md5sum for it is: " 32638d03053970ff8cb4f3fb5b7a74e8 AG0204.PDF "
http://www.ascendancy.net/arashi/AG0204.pdf

So I only rerolled the once. I did much better by all standards this time. Especially by Magica standards. Woo.

Option 2: Random Generation

Random generation produces characters whose Characteristics tend to average to zero, but have the possibility of attaining characteristics of +4 or –4.

You will need two ten-sided dice of different colors. Designate one as the positive die and the other as the negative die. Roll both. If neither die came up 0, subtract the negative die from the positive die, noting the total. For example, if the positive die were a 2 and the negative die a 5, you would record –3. If either die was a 0 (or if both dice turned up the same number), record a 0.

Once you have generated four scores in this way, assign each score to a pair of Characteristics (Int/Per, Str/Sta, Pre/Com, and Dex/Qik). You may then divide that number in any way you choose between the two Characteristics of the pair, provided that you do not assign one to be positive and the other negative or assign any Characteristic a +4 or –4 unless the total was +7, –7, +8, or –8.

>>81195
2, 10, 9, 9, 3, 7, 2, 9
0, 0, -4, -7

Pretty crappy roll mang.

>>81197
>2, 10, 9, 9, 3, 7, 2, 9
>0, 0, -4, -7
Wouldn't that be:
-8, 0, -4, -7 ?

>>81198
If either die was a 0 (or if both dice turned up the same number), record a 0.

D10s are numbered from 0-9, so I've been using '10' for the '0' side.

The special secret option is House Díedne. Most of the material in the main book for them is available on page 233.
It is a pretty crazy option but you should always present your players some crazy options. Even if they say no you've established some important worldbuilding details by making them aware of the crazy possibilities.

Their special, secret power is a special skill that adds to all spontaneous magic totals. Their mandatory house flaw choice should be obvious.

>>81197
>>81198
...I got it backwards in figuring out the result. [sigh] The second I know what not to roll, I roll it. Same thing happened for games where you were supposed to roll *under* a certain number too.(only time I roll really high numbers) Also didn't know about the 0 thing. Probably would have rolled a 9 for the second digit if I did.
Just leave me out of rolling forever.

Magi of Bjornaer (BYORE-nayr) concern themselves primarily with beasts and the animalistic side of human nature. Because of this emphasis in their training, each Bjornaer magus can take the form of an animal, known as his “heart-beast.” Understanding the heart-beast in particular and animals in general is considered more important than Hermetic magic by many in this house.
Due to their nature, Bjornaer magi are unable to forge the necessary links to have a familiar, and the very concept is alien to them. Some Bjornaer deride magi who take familiars, which they call “substitute” heart-beasts. On the other hand, other magi are wary of followers of Bjornaer because of their fascination with the bestial. Furthermore, House Bjornaer is less respected than it might otherwise be because its founder was from a Germanic rather than a Roman magical tradition.

Bonisagus (BOH-nee-SAH-goos) invented the Hermetic theory of magic, and his student, the maga Trianoma, masterminded the formation of the Order. As such, House Bonisagus has always enjoyed a great deal of respect from other magi. Most members of this house believe themselves to be of a privileged, gifted elite.
Some Bonisagus magi refine and expand Hermetic theory, while others oversee the continued political development of the Order. Both types have a strong tradition of using their knowledge and power for the benefit of the Order. Selfishness is strongly discouraged.

This very secretive house is known for its obscure philosophy, its disdain for simple power, and its members’ habit of marking their faces and bodies with arcane symbols. Followers of Criamon (KREE-ah-mone) are an enigmatic and otherworldly group of magi, generally having little interest in the politics of the Order.
Magi of Criamon seek the “Enigma,” which other magi characterize as some sort of mystical experience. For followers of Criamon, understanding the Enigma has a great deal to do with discovering the true nature of Wizards’ Twilight and of magic itself.

This is a large, diverse, and highly disorganized collection of magi. Though originally founded by a renegade as a rival to the Order of Hermes, this association was eventually accepted as a house of its own. It accepts wizards of all kinds, many only nominally Hermetic, whose magic comes from many disparate traditions. Magi Ex Miscellanea (EKS-mis-kel-LAH-nay-ah) are often called hedge wizards by their many detractors within the Order, and in fact, most of its membership originated in the peasant class.

While most followers of Flambeau (flahm-BOH) specialize in fire magic, some study spells of simple annihilation as a more subtle alternative. These aggressive and ferocious magi often cause trouble within the Order and frequently anger mundanes. However, their fearlessness and love of destruction make them invaluable when the Order requires the application of martial force.

House Jerbiton (YARE-bih-tahn) is interested in the mundane world, and sometimes assumes the duty of keeping the Order on good terms with the nobility and Church. This inclination in its members often stems from a noble background—apprentices are usually taken from the aristocracy, and often maintain ties afterwards.
Many members of other houses believe that followers of Jerbiton are too closely bound to the mundane powers to be trusted. On the other hand, Jerbiton magi fear that members of the Order have become isolated from humanity, risking bloody conflict with the mundanes. They try energetically to heal this rift, and pursue aesthetic and Classical knowledge with a passion.

The founder of this house lost his magical powers but remained involved in the Order. He assumed a non-magical role valuable to other magi—that of messenger. His followers continue to fulfill that role. All members of House Mercere (mare-KAY-ray, or mare-SARE in vulgar Latin), regardless of whether they possess the Gift, are officially recognized as magi of the Order. Even non-Gifted Mercere spend 15 years in apprenticeship like other magi.
Followers of Mercere are more commonly known as Redcaps because of the headgear they wear as a badge of office. Redcaps are permitted to attend and vote at tribunal, and are under the protection of the Hermetic Code.

This house is focused on the world of faeries, and its members tend to be just as strange as the creatures they study. Merinita (mare-ih-NEE-tah) magi frequently remain isolated, having little to do with the rest of the Order, except to defend faeries from the assaults of other magi. Those of this house eschew the merely mortal, and seek answers within the mysterious world of Arcadia.

Actually named House Guernicus, after its founder, this house is usually referred to as House Quaesitoris (kwy-see-TOH-riss, “investigators”). Members of this house are the judges of the Order, investigating wrongdoing and passing sentence on those who transgress the Code of Hermes and the Peripheral Code. They believe the Order will collapse through internal conflict without their fierce stewardship.
Although House Guernicus trains and inducts their own apprentices, other magi can also join their ranks. One of the highest honors in the Order is to be invited by the elders of House Guernicus to become a quaesitor. Such magi usually retain membership in their original house.

Members of House Tremere (tray-MARE-ay or tray-MARE) emphasize the importance of judgment, strategy, and detailed planning. They believe in the respect of superiors and in asserting authority over minions. Dignity is of the utmost concern.
Until recently, House Tremere was considered one of the more sensible and stable Houses, providing strength and courage when needed and refraining from action when peace better served the Order. This all came to an end early in the 13th century when it was discovered that several of the highest-ranking Tremere had become vampires in a misguided attempt to gain immortality and power. All the vampiric magi were destroyed in a bloody Wizards’ March.

The philosophy of Tytalus (TEU-tah-loos) magi is to master all forms of conflict. To this end, they promote innovation in all sorts of contests. They do not feel alive unless they are in a constant state of struggle, perpetually testing the strengths and weaknesses of others.
In their never-ending search for conflict, the leaders of House Tytalus went too far in the 10th century, falling prey to demonic machinations. Those masters of intrigue arrogantly believed they could master the dark forces, but despite their skill, were unable to outwit Hell. The leaders were executed for their crime of diabolism, and House Tytalus has been distrusted ever since.

Magi of House Verditius (ware-DEE-tee-oos) have unsurpassed skill at creating enchanted items, making them invaluable to other magi and non-Gifted persons.
Almost all, unfortunately, have also inherited their founder’s magical flaw, making them unable to cast formulaic spells without the aid of magical foci. Followers of Verditius are sometimes considered inferior to other magi because of this weakness.

Was asked what the first option for assigning attributes characteristics was. Here's the answer early.
http://www.tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/res/572264.html#572342

Option 1: Purchase Method
You may spend up to 7 points on positive scores in Characteristics. The cost of a given score is reflected on the Characteristic Cost Table. You will note that buying negative Characteristics yields negative points. Use these to counterbalance the cost of positive Characteristics if you spend more than the seven allotted points.
If you would like to have a Characteristic that is higher than +3 or lower than –3, you should purchase a Characteristic of +3 or –3 now. When you choose Virtues and Flaws you will have the opportunity to increase or decrease your score to a maximum of +5 (or a minimum of –5) only if you already have a +3 or –3.


Characteristic Cost Table

Characteristic Cost Value
+3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
+2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
+1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0
–1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . –1
–2. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . –3
–3. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . –6

That... Pasted Badly suggestion!!VmMJLmMwIu 2014/04/25(Fri)12:20 No. 81218 ID: f12e94
File 139845365088.png - (25.99KB , 483x422 , cct.png )

Screencap instead.

>>81201
>Just leave me out of rolling forever.

But without you to make all the bad rolls someone else would have to do it, and that's one less person who could make the good rolls. C'mon, if you're good at something take pride in it: Be proud of all your terrible rolls.

I find it interesting how the Point buy gives you an overall positive result but the die rolling gives you four numbers that on average should add to 0.

There are one hundred possible combinations to get while rolling the two dice that give you one number. Of those 28 result in a zero(both dice identical(10 ways),First die is zero second is non-zero(9 ways), and first die is non-zero second die is zero(9 ways)) for the other 72 results an even result is equally likely to a negative result.

I also find the extra cost of 3's to seem a little lopsided. A -3 in one characteristic for a +2 in two others. I can see someone putting -3 in one characteristic, a zero in two others, a +1 in a fourth, and four +2's or drop one of the +2s to a +1 and make the two zeroes also +1. Of course without being familiar with the game I have no idea how crippling a -3 actually is.

>>81222
That depends on what attribute characteristic you put the -3 in and what your character concept is like. Depending on what kind of magus you've got a -3 in strength might not matter at all and would be a pretty smart move, for instance. I'll post the list of the eight characteristics when I get to my next break.

You aren't the first person to note that you really do have to roll forever or cheat for the dice option to be unequivocally better than what you can make with point-buy. It's a remnant of when rolling your attributes for D&D with a bare 3d6 six times was considered normal--the first version of this game was made two years before 'Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition' was released. Nowadays I'd be surprised if most RPGs don't have a point-buy option (or lack dice rolls) so we can avoid the eternal, obnoxious, dice roll arguments over character creation.

Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence represents both memory and the capacity to learn and think. It is important for Abilities that require thought power and is paramount for the Hermetic Arts. A character with low Intelligence is not necessarily stupid—common sense, street savvy, and wisdom are not described by Intelligence.

Perception (Per)
Perception quantifies the ability to notice things, as well as powers of intuition. While sometimes conscious, Perception often works intuitively—your character simply notices something. The storyguide may also let you roll Perception when checking various Knowledges, to see if you have insight into a certain fact or concept. Perception is important for Abilities such as Awareness, Hunt, and Folk Ken.


Strength (Str)
Strength measures physical power: lifting, pushing, shoving, heaving and moving. Strength is important when hefting a melee weapon and when using brute, physical force against something or someone. People with high Strength are often bigger than those with low Strength, assuming they have the same Size.

Stamina (Sta)
Stamina represents the limits of a character’s exertion, as well as how much physical punishment he can sustain. It is staying power, both mental and physical, and one of its most important components is simply the will to live. Stamina also measures someone’s ability to carry a load for an extended period, ignore fatigue, and withstand wounds.


Presence (Pre)
Presence describes a character’s appearance, demeanor and charisma. It is important for making a good impression, as well as for leading people. Presence also measures how imposing or intimidating a person is. Even if not physically attractive, a person with high Presence might still have a demeanor that commands respect.

Communication (Com)
Communication represents the aptitude for self-expression. It is important when attempting to influence or communicate with someone, verbally or otherwise. A positive Communication score suggests a character who is comfortable with or confident in his relationships with other people.


Dexterity (Dex)
Dexterity means being able to move with agility and to manipulate objects accurately and skillfully. It includes hand-eye coordination, fine motor control, and bodily grace. Dexterity also helps determine how well your character swings a sword or throws a knife.

Quickness (Qik)
Quickness indicates reaction speed and reflexes, and helps determine who acts first when two people are trying to do something with great haste. It also describes how well your character does something in a hurry. Your effective Quickness is usually modified by your Encumbrance.

>You may spend up to 7 points on positive scores in Characteristics.

Do the points not used for characteristics get used for Virtues and flaws? Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point to not using them all.

As for how to allocate, We can prob take a decent negative for Strength (-2 or -3) and if we take a negative(-3 or -2, opposite of the strength detriment) for one other stat, then we can have all the rest be +2 (and a single +1 which could go well for stamina). My style of char play is normally towards fast/dextrous characters, so I'm leaning towards quick and dex to not be reduced.

>>81231
I was personally thinking a single -3, three +2's, and four +1's. I don't see the point in dropping one characteristic down three points to raise two others by one. Someone also just rolled a +3, +6, +3, -3 in the thread so we could probably get something good out of that too.

>>81231
>Do the points not used for characteristics get used for Virtues and flaws?
Totally separate. Use 'em up if you like, they're a gratuity. Can't get more characteristic points elsewhere in character gen though, although there are virtues and flaws that can take +3 characteristics higher and -3 ones lower.

>>81232
I tend to find that anything less than a 2 in intelligence is, "I am deliberately handicapping my wizard for roleplaying reasons." 3+ is surprisingly useful, although it may not be worth as much as it costs to buy more than three with virtue points.

Variable Virtues
(Follower of Bjornaer), Cyclic Magic (positive), Magical Affinity, Method Caster

+1 Virtues
Adept Student, Deft Art, Extra Arts, Extra Spells, (Faerie Magic), Fast Caster, Free Study, Gentle Gift, Hermetic Prestige, Inventive Genius, Mastered Spells, Quaesitor, Secret Vis Source, Special Circumstances, Strong Writer

+2 Virtues
Cautious Sorcerer, Quiet Magic, Side Effect, Student of Faerie, Subtle Magic,

+3 Virtues
Enduring Magic, Life-Linked Spontaneous Magic

+5 Virtues
Elementalist, Silent Magic

Variable Flaws
Cyclic Magic (negative), Deleterious Circumstances, Magical Deficiency, Poor Formulaic Magic

-1 Flaws
Blatant Gift, Creative Block, Disjointed Magic, Flawed Parma Magica, (Follower of Verditius), Hedge Wizard, Incompatible Arts, Incomprehensible, Infamous Master, Loose Magic, Necessary Condition, (No Familiar), (No Sigil), Poor Reader, Poor Student, Tormenting Master, Twilight Points, Unimaginative Learner, Vis Obligation, Warped Magic, Weak Writer

-2 Flaws
Clumsy Magic, Discredited Lineage, Lack Of Concentration, Lack Of Control, Limited Magic Resistance, Rigid Magic, Short-Lived Magic, Slow Caster, Stingy Master, Weak Magic

-3 Flaws
Magic Addiction, Old, Painful Magic, Study Requirement, Weak Parma Magica

-4 Flaws
Chaotic Magic, Susceptibility to Divine Power, Susceptibility to Faerie Power, Susceptibility to Infernal Power, Unpredictable Magic

-6 Flaws
Non-Spontaneity, Personal Magic, Unstructured Caster

Variable Virtues
Faerie Blood, Immunity, Knack, Magic Item, Purifying Touch

+1 Virtues
Alchemy, Ambidextrous, Animal Companion, Animal Ken, Arcane Lore, Beginning Vis, Berserk, Book Learner, Busybody, Carefree, Cautious with (Ability), Clear Thinker, Close Family Ties, Common Sense, Contortions, Direction Sensem Dousing, Empathy, Enduring Constitution, Faerie Upbringing, Free Expression, Further Education, Good Armaments, Healer, Heir, Herbalism, Higher Purpose, Indentured Servant, Inspirational, Keen Vision, Learn From Mistakes (Ability), Light Sleeper, Long-Winded, Magic Sensitivity, Mimicry, Perfect Balance, Premonitions, Prestigious Family, Rapid Convalescence, Read Lips, Reckless, Second Sight, Secret Hiding Place, Self-Confident, Sense Holiness & Unholiness, Sharp Ears, Social Contacts (among X), Strong Personality, Strong-Willed, Tough, Training, Troupe Upbringing, True Friend, Venus' Blessing, Versatile Sleeper, Veteran, Weather Sense, Well-Known, Well-Traveled

+2 Virtues
Blackmail, Enchanting Music, Faerie Friend, Famous, Gossip, Great (Characteristic), Hex, Indulgences, Intuition, Jack-of-All-Trades, Latent Magic Ability, Lightning Reflexes, Light Touch, Luck, Magical Animal Companion, Mentor, Patron, Piercing Gaze, Reserves of Strength, Skinchanger, Superior Armaments, Temporal Influence, True Love, Visions, Withstand Magic

+3 Virtues
Charmed Life, Fast Learner, Guardian Angel, Highly Trained, Large, Protection, Relic, True Faith, Visual Eidetic Memory, Wealth

+4 Virtues
Destiny, Divination, Entrancement, Ghostly Warder, Incredible (Characteristic), Magic Resistance, Quality Armaments, Ways of the (Suburb)

+5 Virtues
Fast Learner, Giant Blood, Mythic (Characteristic)

Variable Flaws
Cursed, Enemies, Outsider, Vow

-1 Flaws
Bad Reputation, Black Sheep, Compulsion, Dark Secret, Deep Sleeper, Delusion, Dependent, Disfigured, Driving Goal, Dutybound, Evil Eye, Expenses, Fairy Emnity, Favours, Fragile Constitution, Hatred, Hunchback, Infamous Family, Judged Unfairly, Lost Love, Low Self-Esteem, Magical Air, Magic Susceptibility, Meddler, Missing Ear, Missing Eye, Oath of Fealty, Obese, Obligation, Obsessed, Offensive to Animals. Oversensitive, Poor Armaments, Poor Eyesight, Poor Hearing, Reclusive, Simple-Minded, Soft-Hearted, Tainted With Evil, Uncommon Fear, Weakness, Weak-Willed

-2 Flaws
Clumsy, Common Fear, Curse of Venus, Decrepit, Diabolic Upbringing, Haunted, Infamous, Lame, Lycanthrope, Missing Hand, Noncombatant, Obligation, Overconfident, Poor, Poor (Characteristic), Sheltered Upbringing, Terrors

-3 Flaws
Arthritis, Fury, Sense of Doom, Small Frame

-4 Flaws
Feeble (Characteristic), Plagued by (Supernatural Thingy)

-5 Flaws
Age Quickly, Dwarf, Pathetic (Characteristic)

-6 Flaws
Enfeebled, Poor Memory

The virtues and flaws lists are the main reason why I posted links to the source .PDF in the discussion thread here. There's something like two hundred of them and the formatting in the PDF is really weird so that won't copy as text very well.

Maybe I could try screencapping, but that might suck. What would you like?

http://www.tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/res/572264.html#572429
>[...]how meta is the actual game gonna be? Is it gonna be like 'Roleplayer says that his character Reginald unequivocally states[...]

Short version: I'll be trying to keep the gaming, metagaming and meta-metagaming levels separate or at least mostly-separate.

Longer version: My starting plan is that if we play in Mythic Europe (which hasn't been affirmatively decided yet) we'll be in-avatar--as picked for the scenario in the normal way when playing Ars Magica--and we'll be facing the NPCs and the other PCs directly. I'll be trying to leave the jokes about bad roleplaying, min-maxing and anachronisms at the meta-metagaming level where they belong unless I have to crash the layer-separation. To make the appropriate/necessary commentary/explanation about the rules and what's going on that layer-crashing may happen distressingly often. However, my intention is to avoid that wherever it isn't necessary since it'll be necessary quite often already from the quest being about playing in an Ars Magica troupe.

The plan is subject to future adjustment or outright abandonment as discoveries are made about what works and fails, obviously.

Looking through the flaws/virtue lists, here are the ones I am currently considering in particular:

[+1] Faerie Magic (Mandatory):his allows you to have a unique Arcane Talent, Faerie Magic, which you purchase along with your other Abilities and improve with experience points. Add your score in this Ability to rolls resisting faerie magic and to rolls when casting faerie magic spells that you learn or invent. The higher your score in this Ability, though, the more strange and like the fey you become.

[+2] Sidhe Blood: You are descended from one of the noble Sidhe who rule the lands of Summer and sunlight You get +1 to all rolls to avoid afflictions due to aging, and +3 to all natural resistance rolls for those spells you want to resist. In addition, because of the striking and unusual qualities of your nature add +1 to your Presence, even it brings you total over +3. Many mortals may consider you fascinating or alluring.
(Fits the theme for a far-house wizard, and the magic resistance bit sounds pretty good through I have no actual idea how much or little that is.)

[+1] Faerie Upbringing: Perhaps you were abandoned by your true kin, and the faeries found you. Maybe your family actually lived in a faerie forest, or faeries took you as a babe. Though you are now back in human society, you feel at home with and have an enhanced understanding of faeries, magic, and other strange things. You have the equivalent of the +1 Virtue Common* Sense when dealing with Faerie. However, you find human society, including religion, bizarre. You cannot have Social Skills as starting Abilities, but may purchase the Knowledge Faerie Lore, even if you cannot otherwise buy Arcane Knowledges.
(Particularly thinking along the lines of the family living in a faerie forest, with a small community of eccentric and usually fae-related humans living in a faerie forest.)

[+1] Close Family Ties : Your family is one of the most important things in your life, and still supports and aids you whenever possible, even at personal risk. Family members do not hesitate to do you any favor that is within their power, and can call on their friends and neighbors to help you. It works both ways, however; your family may require help from you some day
(We try to keep in contact with out home community of woodland weirdos, though the amount they could help is generally pretty limited, which distinguishes this from Faerie Friend which is a different virtue.)

[-1] Blatant Gift: People immediately realize that there is something strange about you, even if they do not know you are a magus. Animals are extremely disturbed, frightened, and possibly enraged by your presence. You suffer a –6 penalty on all interaction rolls with normal people and animals.
(Seems natural for a weird fae-involved mage.)

[-1] Hedge Wizard: Because of your esoteric magic, other magi distrust you, and more importantly, grant you no respect. You start with a negative Reputation within the Order of Hermes at level 3 as a hedge wizard, even though you are a member of the Order.
(Another consequence of being that weird guy from a faerie forest.)

[-1]Favors: You owe a boon to someone (or to a great many people), and may be called upon to return the favor at any time. The consequences of ignoring such a request can range from mild to deadly serious, at the storyguide’s discretion.
(Our character's background also comes with a few Folk they owe favors to for various mortal or fae reasons.)

[-1] Uncommon Fear: Something that others find innocuous or even pleasant makes you nervous, edgy, and unable to concentrate. If you are prone to violence, you might respond by attacking or destroying the feared thing, but only if you cannot escape its presence. The object of your fear is not something you’re likely to meet on a daily basis. Examples include wild animals, strange sounds, and clergy.
(Because when you grow up in a small community of faerie-blooded and faeries, priests would be the equivalent of boogeymen through their association with the encroaching power of the Dominion and the parts of human society that are more foreign to fae.)

[-1] Meddler: You want to fix other peoples’ lives: arrange matches, teach children to sew “properly,” or tend the sick. You waste a lot of time and energy on such endeavors, and people usually resent it. You have a Personality Trait of Meddlesome +3 and a bad Reputation, level 1, as a meddler. If you are a magus, you probably interfere in the affairs of other magi, companions, and apprentices. You don’t violate Hermetic law, but you probably come close—and you almost certainly irritate the other magi of your covenant.
(As players we kind of have these tendencies anyways, so why not take it to the next level?)

* For reference so you don't have to look it up,
Common Sense: Whenever you are about to do something contrary to what is sensible in the game setting, common sense (the storyguide) alerts you to the error. This is an excellent Virtue for a beginning player, as it legitimizes any help the storyguide may give.

I'm concerned that the chargen section of this quest might go on too long. Firstly, it's a complicated process, and meeting players one at a time will only drag it out more. Secondly, there's a lot of waiting for extra input beyond what's already been received. For example, the latest pause; four suggestions is actually a perfectly reasonable number, especially for a new quest, especially a text quest.

>>81297
Thanks for the feedback. Writing is taking longer than I figured it would: Each time I come back to it I think of something else to put in and something to take out.

>>81286
These are actually pretty good. I looked over the flaws and virtues, but since I don't know how important some of the stats are I'd rather hedge my bets and go with this.

>>81306
Just to check, are we supposed to ask anything in the quest right now? It seems like it's still a cut scene. Also, it would *extremely* easy to turn a bandage into a lesser enchanted device used for healing, right? I'm pretty sure the healing effects would be temporary (until we can apply vis after battle) but having an instant heal spell is pretty awesome.

>>81286

A min-maxer would nit-pick or straight-out tell you some of your choices are wrong. Resisting the urge to min-max is praiseworthy as long as you don't carry it too far though, dragging the average too far down is as bad as dragging it too far up.

-Owing favours to a fairy often is more dangerous than owing favours to the pope, or a king, or an assassin. One of those choices might be more interesting as well.

-When min-maxing as a wizard Sidhe Blood becomes mostly a quirky way to raise presence above +3 with some side-benefits: The bonus to natural resistance should never make a difference because that would mean your magic resistance is too weak. The bonus to aging rolls can give your wizard a decade of longer lifespan on a given longevity potion but it's questionable whether that's worth a virtue point. Presence is not a core-stat for most magi and things you would tend to use it for are things they can usually use mentem or imaginem spells to do better (that does have limits; it won't fly at meetings with your fellow magi or when dealing with supernaturals too potent to succumb to your magic of course so the magus or maga version of a social butterfly is a worthwhile idea).

-Faerie Upbringing +1 would be overpriced if it prevents you from taking social abilities, so I'm just going to cut out the, "You cannot have Social Skills as starting Abilities," part of that virtue instead of trying to adjust the price. With it still in it'd (fairly) be a flaw for magi and a worse flaw for non-magi: Dealing with fairies is an adventure, not a day that ends in Y. As far as the average peasant is concerned demons and fairies are mostly-interchangeable aside from the possibility that the fairies doing horrible things to you might be trying to be nice and don't understand that it isn't working.


More generally you haven't quite read enough of the source material so some of these picks don't work together (or at all) for reasons you have to get really familiar with the material to know. In general you seem to be making the mistake of thinking of the fay as though they are like people: They are perhaps more distant from that than you expect.

-Close family ties and fairy upbringing don't fit together, and fairy upbringing tends not to go with fay blood. The background of the 'Faerie Upbringing' virtue is that the fairies would have raised you because your family died, you ran away, or they stole you. The reason you aren't a fairy now is because luck, your mystical nature or some interference stopped you from turning into a fairy while living with them. Close family ties might reflect closeness to another family however, perhaps an adoptive one. Fairy upbringing tends not to go with fay blood because if you already have some fay blood the transition from mortal to fay should be quicker.

-A fairy ancestor is long gone as a pretty hard rule since the only fairies who stay in one place tend to be the nobility that control a fay territory or fairies who move in with a mortal institution (a farm, a shop, a church) and stay there. Those wouldn't do that sort of thing with mortals, again as a hard rule with few exceptions. The others who would do that with mortals move around restlessly because they are very bored. A fay relative that you actually have a relationship with would be an ally or a fairy companion or something since the close family ties virtue normally refers to an unremarkable mortal family. You could take separate virtues to define your family as something else like Heir and such, but unless I'm misremembering we'd have to make a virtue or flaw to reflect having a fay family and that probably wouldn't make sense in the setting. We'd have to get into hairy specifics of what kind of fairies you came from, where they were, what would lead to the unusual situation of them caring about family at all, and on top of that we'd have to figure out the triply-unusual situation of them caring about mortal offspring that don't live with them in fairy territory.
One theoretical possibility would be that you are somehow related to an important fairy noble, perhaps he or she heard of the mortal custom of adoption to acquire an heir, and wanted to try it because both having a family and heredity-based-succession are these interestingly foreign notions. (Heredity is something they tend to have a theoretical grasp of at best, and they might miss the obvious flaw in their plan that they'd have to be able to die for the heir part to mean what it's supposed to mean. Or perhaps they do understand and they plan to 'die' and see what happens when a mortal is supposed to become a fairy noble.) I'd have to think hard about how to price that as a virtue (or flaw?), but it probably breaks the scale since that's a saga-dominating story.

-Hedge Wizard only applies to specific magi of Ex Miscellanea; what it really means is magi that aren't really Hermetic wizards. Merinita was one of the twelve founders so that's just a no since it doesn't even apply to House Verditius: Their magic is significantly further from strict-Hermetic than most of what Merinita magi do.

-Faerie Magic +1 mostly is power and knowledge with recognizing, using and resisitng fairy magic like using trods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_path), finding the way into and out of fairy areas, using and seeing through glamours, resisting their mind- and emotion-affecting magic and such. It's a non-Hermetic thing they do outside of their usual magic, which is really useful when dealing with fairies in general and helpful in other situations besides that (using trods can take you long distances in a hurry outside of the limits of Hermetic magic particularly).

-Mundanes who spend too long with the fairies become fairies themselves. There wouldn't be such a thing as a fairy village because villages are something that mortals do: It would turn into a fairy-flavoured version whatever wild-land it was before the village was settled if it weren't taken as the lands of a fairy noble and transformed according to their will. That said, a child raised by fay could easily become afraid of priests from one bad encounter with them. Heck, ordinary mortals can and do find them frightening too: All their chanting in Latin and those pictures and statues of that guy bleeding on a cross are creepy.

>>81316
I've been working on it, the poster at >>81297 helpfully complained that I was taking too long so I put up the part I was certain about from my partial-progress. I'm trying to avoid half-assing it because there's so much stuff in Ars Magica that it's hard to simplify without missing something, and trying to cram too much at once risks confusion. Apologies for any confusion, and the disappointment from taking so long: I am doing this during breaks and waiting periods at work.

>or straight-out tell you some of your choices are wrong.
Probably because a lot of them are; its a natural consequence of never having played the game before or read most of the rulebook. So far I know next to nothing about the system or setting to the point where I don't even know what the more or less useful stats are.
I don't have the time tonight to select replacement traits, but here are the traits that should probably be cut from the list your feedback:
- Sidhe Blood
- Close Family ties
- Hedge wizard (For some reason the book didn't specify the house requirement)

I am kind of tempted to keep the owed faerie favors unless it is very likely to get our character killed or is not actually as interesting as it seems.

By the way, is the flaw Magic Addiction (the -3 one where you have to make a will roll to stop casting spells) more of a crippling and deadly thing, or more of an inconvenient thing that is potentially interesting?

>>81335
Mentor(+2) would probably be a good one to replace Sidhe blood. (would tell us the gist of stuff in game too) And if we get deep sleeper(-1) as a negative we can get either Keen vision, learn from mistakes, or magic sensitivity as virtues.(all +1s)

>>81335
You could also keep the Close Family Ties and the Sidhe blood but drop the Faerie Upbringing in the circular file. It's been my experience that there are too few wizards intended to be socially competent and Faerie Blood is the only thing I can remember off the top of my head that can do anything to alter Characteristics besides increasing the absolute-value of +3/-3 ones. A social focus would fit more with Gentle Gift than Blatant Gift usually, but going against type there can also be interesting, particularly if you take special talents like Animal Ken and Empathy to make up for the difficulties posed by having the blatant gift.

The overall question of how to make Ars Magica accessible is something I've been working on, "How do I make an entire 272 page book worth of dense, highly-interconnected and partially-incomplete stuff into something people can actually do in a quest format without memorizing the contents of the main book?"
That's why I invented the idea of NPC-players of your gaming group to give you answers to questions that can have surprisingly subjective and/or complicated answers. It's hard to try and make them more than just me wearing a sock-puppet, and that's part of why the last major update took me so long.

A more TGChan-traditional way to do a quest in/about Ars Magica would have been to just hide and abstract the Ars Magica rules. In that case the QM would have to err on the side of bending, breaking or outright tossing the rules while trying to dig into the setting itself. If you count the pages there's much more rules and rules-content material than setting material so 1) that would literally throw out more than half the book, and, 2) one of the reasons I'm doing this is to show a bunch of things, including how cool the magic system from Ars Magica is. Except for the combat system, which I intend to duly mock while explaining how most of the people who hate it didn't even understand it, there's lots good things to say about the rest of the base Ars Magica system. I can't draw so my choice was plain however: It's about the spreadsheets.

>>81336
Both. It's an annoying, whimsical problem that can easily kill you in risky situations, like casting, "Wings of the Soaring Wind," from page 121. It also tends to get worse as you get older because your power with the arts of magic increases much faster than your concentration ability does normally--perhaps five times faster or more unless you are the most wide-interested generalist there is. But of course if you have magic you can do things about that, like magic items and spells to help deal with the problem one way or another. The flipside to that is that the concentration talent itself directly contributes to how quickly your mastery of the arts of magic can rise through study, so boosting it--while a generally good idea--doesn't help in the long run.

>>81338
Mentor as written with the mention of potential for conflict with the covenant does not make sense for a magus; you've just finished fifteen years of apprenticeship to become a wizard. That said, there can be Hermetic mentors or mentors with different issues than a conflict with the covenant. An elder Bonisagus easily could fit into this role for just about any magus of the order, for instance. Your master easily can fill the role if you're on good terms with them.

Okay...Sooo should I be reading that PDF in the first post to start off or somethign?
I feel like somehow, with the character creation and this, that and the other I'm missing something, or I'm just derping and failing to understand what's right in front of me.

>>81341
It's like almost 300 pages. Your best bet it to just ctrl-f about subjects and find what's written about them. (how I found out healing is temporary, which is actually pretty weird. Unless you use raw vis.) We can also only use a sword/any weapon other than brawling ones if we have a strength of -2 or better.(ctrl-f shortsword)

>>81343
Other than throwing knives. And I mean literally any other weapon type listed, which includes bows and crossbows. (we wouldn't even be strong enough to use a whip which is kinda ridiculous.)

>>81341
>>81343
I'm trying really hard to make it so that people who don't want to read the whole book don't have to even open it, but it remains to be seen if this is even possible: Ars Magica is really complicated and proper explanations of stuff tends to involve things that aren't even in the book at times (like Faerie Magic +1 for example). I've finally introduced most of the complexity in the game but we haven't really grappled with most of it yet.

You might also find that the old-style dead-tree type search method at the back of the book, called an index, is surprisingly helpful when control-f isn't getting you something you think you should be able to find.

>>81343, 81344
You can also throw a rock and use a sling, but use of mundane weapons requires a decent strength score: Encumbrance is this penalty system that makes it harder to do anything if you've got it, and it's equal to your strength minus the load values for any armour or weapons you've got so you really need a minimum of +1 strength to be any kind of effective fighter.

> A social focus would fit more with Gentle Gift than Blatant Gift usually, but going against type there can also be interesting, particularly if you take special talents like Animal Ken and Empathy to make up for the difficulties posed by having the blatant gift.
Being weird yet so charming few people care sounds tempting; I will keep that in mind as one of our options.

> Penetration is [...] really not that useful or powerful.
So Weak Magic for some offensive Form we don't plan on specializing in is probably an effective investment for a somewhat more powerful (depending on what you buy with the points) character?

"The storyguide may disallow this Virtue for some Arts that rarely require penetration, or rarely call for natural resistance."

It's not supposed to be free points, and in general I'd say most of the flaws in the Hermetic section are balanced to be more of a setback than they're worth. Note particularly how it costs +4 worth of Extra Arts and Extra Spells to make up for what's taken away if you take the -2 Stingy Master flaw.

I could ramble about why it's like that, but that's mostly of historic interest or interesting to game designers.

I attempted to upload my character sheet spreadsheet, but apparently .ods is not a supported upload type for questdis. Can't say I fnd that too surprising.

I don't mean in the sense of free points; I mean in the sense of a hit to a secondary stat of one of the Arts you cast on others (which I guess in this case would be things like Rego, Perdo, Corpus, Animal, Mentem?) seeming a lot smaller that many of the -2 powers like the double cast time one or the one with no Concentration/Rituals.

About the spreadsheet, have you considered a google drive spreadsheet set so anyone can view (or maybe comment)?

>So Weak Magic for some offensive Form we don't plan on specializing in is probably an effective investment for a somewhat more powerful (depending on what you buy with the points) character?

>>81367
>I don't mean in the sense of free points; I mean in the sense of a hit to a secondary stat of one of the Arts you cast on others (which I guess in this case would be things like Rego, Perdo, Corpus, Animal, Mentem?) seeming a lot smaller that many of [...]

-2 Lack Of Concentration is just broken in 4th ed and is one of the things they didn't properly update for the new version. That's worth something like -27 as a flaw in 4th edition I'd say (I.E. something you should need special group/alpha-storyguide agreement to take). -2 Slow Caster right next to it is much more tolerable and even works as excellent elemental-flavour for a terram specialist mage. -2 for common, minor, Deleterious Circumstances that gives a -3 penalty to magic in urban settings is similarly worth thinking about (unless that would be a permanent -3 in your home covenant) and a couple points of Poor Formulaic Magic usually isn't that bad actually; as many points as you have positive points of stamina makes keeping track of your casting totals (without a spreadsheet) easier.

About Weak Caster, that's essentially a permanent 3-5 level of effect penalty for all of spontaneous, normal formulaic and ritual magic for the affected art, and the last five levels is the hardest part for lab-work unless you're doing something so simple you can do it in a single season. It might be cost effective but it seems to have been mostly intended to be a way to make it possible to have the Flambeau whose fire was weak. You might be better off picking the -1 Weak Parma if you want specific-form or specific-technique difficulties that aren't a Magical Deficiency. (Magical Deficiency is under priced but decent roleplaying flavour.)

More generally about the wizard flaws: The virtue and flaw system is too much information to wade through without a guide and examples to discuss or a full grasp of the system gathered over years of play, because it touches every other part of the system. This is why each of the NPCs was prepared with at least one example character they could explain the virtues and flaws of. The other easy-mode alternative is people throwing together character idea-stories and I (either directly or through the sock-puppets) comment on, adjust and stat-out those ideas.

I could go full-metagamer here and paragraph about what virtues and flaws to take if you wanna play with the big bucket of virtue and flaw lego. That might be a little hard to follow without me assembling it into discrete characters, but it's probably easier than trying to make sense of the system directly without general commentary.


I'm contractually barred from using Google products, and wouldn't want to anyway because I know too much about the creepy Google stalking system. I'm open to other ideas though.

>any kind of effective fighter
It's not so much that as that I'd like to be able to defeat maybe a dog without having to resort to magic. A strength score of -3 would make us technically as strong as a cat.

Which types of magical weapons are we talking about;(since we couldn't use mundane ones) enchanted weapons or magic weapons?(wands/spell summoned weapons)

>>81381
>Which types of magical weapons are we talking about;(since we couldn't use mundane ones) enchanted weapons or magic weapons?(wands/spell summoned weapons)

The Incantation of Lightning:
R: Near/Sight, D: Mom, T: Spec
Aimed: –3
Spell Focus: An Oak Wand (see below) (+3)
A lightning bolt shoots forth from your outstretched hand in the direction you are pointing, doing +45 damage to a single target it hits. Those near the target must make Size stress rolls of 6+ to remain standing. The oak wand need not be magical, but must be from a tree struck three times by lightning.

Palm of Flame
R: Touch, D: Conc, T: Small
Spell Focus: A Piece of Flint (+1)
A flame leaps up in your palm, which must be upturned for the spell’s duration. The flame does +10 damage to anyone else that touches it.

Seriously, the magic system is awesome and lets you make up all kinds of cool shit. Name something you'd like.

I made a wiki page for the quest, including some example things that can be made into stat blocks for a character sheet. You need to make an account to edite the page (which doesn't take that long) and the wiki's formatting is a bit clunky, but using that means people wouldn't have to download the character sheet each time. The wiki page is http://tgchan.org/wiki/Ars_Magica_preadsheets

On an unrelated note, when making spells can you intentionally give them a very short duration in order to do things like shrink a boulder to a pebble for two seconds, throw it at someone, and laugh as it turns back to a boulder mid-flight?

>>81413
Now I have to find some third party email provider to make an account with. Can the spelling be fixed?

To your unrelated question: I'd make that concentration duration, but that is just one of the terrifyingly broken/cool things you could do in Ars Magica: I referenced Trapping the Fire in the main thread to help with the crazy ideas like this.

Writing up how broken Ars Magica's long-term balance is turns out to be a little more difficult than I expected so please be patient with me updating the quest thread.

>>81413
>>81417
The spelling has been preemptively fixed. (By a preexisting page).

http://tgchan.org/wiki/Ars_Magica_Spreadsheets

Copy what you want from the formatting sandbox there on the incorrect namespace, and I'll delete it in a day or two.

Test, does this work?
Now I have wiki access but I'm not entirely sure what to do with it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tkrkege76rojckg/arscharacterspreadsheet2a.ods

Updated the wiki to put some stuff on it that belongs. You can find that here: http://tgchan.org/wiki/Ars_Magica_Spreadsheets

Also, as of this time the main thread was last updated a little under 40 hours ago, with no responses yet.

>>81443
A good chunk of people lost interest because there are so many pages of explanation.(not really your fault) As for the "what type of character" way of going about traits, I'm kinda bad at writing/ back stories so I'm not gonna write one here. Even when I played D&D with my friends I just didn't bother having more than like 3 sentences. Not gonna bother with it here.(I just don't find it fun, most others probably feel otherwise)

Best bet would probably be to select a char pretty soon and just go from there.(treating fantasy fan as the last indepth meeting) I'd be willing to bounce some char ideas a bit later, but I gotta get some sleep cause I've been awake for like 3 days straight now.

Just to check, what else would be needed to turn the Merinita char discussed in here/the main page into a playable one? I like how it seems to be coming together. I think we have to pick magic specialties, weapons/skill specialties, and then spells. Right? (are the magic specialties points divided amongst the types, or pick one specialty and one sub specialty [Muto and Terram])

>>81446
>A good chunk of people lost interest because there are so many pages of explanation.
Yeah, one of the reasons I started this quest was to test whether it was possible to shove Ars Magica into TGChan without dumbing it down. So far the answer looks like, "Maybe, but it doesn't work that well."

>Best bet would probably be to select a char pretty soon and just go from there.
I could throw out a pile of characters to pick from, that isn't that hard. If we want to do that it would be the quickest way to get started.

>Just to check, what else would be needed to turn the Merinita char discussed in here/the main page into a playable one?

It would take a while.
-Have not picked Characteristics yet (quick)
-Have not picked Virtues & Flaws yet (not at all quick)
-Have not picked skills yet
-Have not picked art scores yet
-Have not picked spells yet
-Have not finished details like origin, age, gender, name, etc.

Personally I haven't lost interest; it is just that this is final exam season for me so I will be pretty busy for the next few days.

>>81461
Fair enough, just wondering when to call the experiment failed, or if I'm trying to do too much of a hard takeoff and I should deliver a pile of finished choices to pick from.

>>81462
I'd be willing to keep trying, but I'm not doing back story stuff. The simplified characterization is as detailed as I would end up writing anyways. Also found this http://rpg.ekkaia.org/ampcc/ It's pretty cool.

I do think it's too hard of a takeoff.
For the final question, what are the characteristic points available from that guy who rolled really well later in the thread?

>Also found this http://rpg.ekkaia.org/ampcc/ It's pretty cool.
Quite nice, but that 5th edition, which isn't free. Did the dropbox link not work?

Alright, I'll get started pulling together a pool of choices. I'll make one Merinita although it's my least favourite house because of how annoying the fay usually are--people bored to internet-degree without an internet are a menace!

Information Dump Format Attempt suggestion!!VmMJLmMwIu 2014/05/05(Mon)21:57 No. 81477 ID: f12e94
File test5.swf - (44.44KB , 720x931 )

Give me feedback: Does this work?

That does seem like a VERY useful little thing to keep track of stats and whatnot! It even helps me get a sense of what there is/isn't to character creation...Not so much that I can actually contribute a build but still, nice.

>>81477
Really cool.

>>81490
>>81501
Thank you for the feedback, now I just have to rebuild it as something less flimsy than a proof-of-concept, and start shoving a few character sheets through this process. That may take a while. The rebuilding it to not suck is the longest part though, so once it's done putting characters into it would be the easy part.

Tentatively successful. I'll drop Relámpago's character sheet in the main quest thread.

http://www.tgchan.org/kusaba/quest/res/572264.html#573832
>I really hope I'm poking at other old characters instead of asking you to basically come up with a bunch of characters here!

I have my character spreadsheet and process to make a .swf out of it generally sorted out now. That means making and putting up a new wizard takes roughly a half an hour from start to posting if I have a good idea of what I'm trying to make. It could take less than that if it's really straightforward and I'm not inventing any spells, hacking the spreadsheet to put in different combat values, or anything complicated like that while I'm doing it. The text for an update usually takes longer than that because I have to let it sit, go do something else, and then come back to do editing.

(Exception: If it's a Merinita those will always take twice as long simply because fairies are annoying. I get distracted by remembering just how annoying fairies are. Think 4chan dwellers without an internet to keep them safely pacified, magic powers they can use to screw with people, immortality that mostly protects them from consequences, and approximately no fear of going too far because the party van hasn't been invented yet. It's not safe to have even the 'nice' ones around and most of them get incredibly annoying if they're not entertained.)

Some general questions about magic:
- Is it easier (in terms of rolls) to make a variant of a spell you know than an entirely new spell?
- Do Ring spells with a room or structure target potentially last indefinitely as long as the circle is unbroken (And could that be used as part of an elaborate ritual to give some benefit to a circular building or even a conclave if applied to its walls?)
- Do ritual spells that are made permanent on an item count towards the max enchanting vis used on it?
- If you are enchanting an item multiple times consecutively, do you need to re-prepare it for each enchantment?

A few more questions:
- How large is a 'pace'? (I would guess around two feet or so, since Wall of Protecting Stone is four paces high, which would be comically small if a pace were around one foot.)
- Would touching the ground with your shoe count for Touch range, or would that be Reach?
- There are high level Corpus spells for long distance teleportation, but is short-distance teleportation a thing?

>>81622
>Some general questions about magic:
>- Is it easier (in terms of rolls) to make a variant of a spell you know than an entirely new spell?
Short answer: Yes, if you're rolling at all. Longer answer in parts.

-Inventing spells is a process that takes place over one or more seasons of effort, and involves something called a lab total. The usual total is your intelligence, plus magic theory, plus the technique and form art scores for the spell (complicated by requisites), plus the aura value of the covenant you are inventing the spell in, plus the quality modifier of the lab you're using (if it has one), plus any relevant affinities, and then adjusted by whatever other bonuses or penalties there are from virtues and flaws, someone else helping you, wound penalties, and potentially some miscellaneous things besides the above as well (rarely).

-Die rolling is not strictly necessary, but it can be involved as an optional bonus to your lab total if you want to take the risks of playing dice with 'Arcane Experimentation' (as described on pages 92-94). This bonus can make a difference in how many seasons something takes or whether it is even possible at all. The chances that arcane experimentation can go very right is part of why Arete the Tytalus is an interesting starting character.

-Knowing a similar spell gives you a bonus of one fifth of its level to your lab total to make that similar spell. What counts as a similar spell is covered on page 69 in the spellcasting section of the book.

-An example: The L35 Incantation of Lightning spell in the book on page 118 only has a range of 'near,' which makes it useful for close encounters but less useful for striking from a distance. If you wanted to invent a version that has far or sight distance instead (which would be a L40 or L45 spell, respectively) knowing Incantation of Lightning would give a +7 bonus to your lab total to invent that version.

>- Do Ring spells with a room or structure target potentially last indefinitely as long as the circle is unbroken (And could that be used as part of an elaborate ritual to give some benefit to a circular building or even a conclave if applied to its walls?)
Ring duration and the Circle target only combine with each other, so your question as stated is unanswerable.
The circle of a ring spell is something that the wizard traces out by hand during the casting, risking a botch* if the circle is broken before they are finished or their casting is disrupted in any way. Ring spells are mostly used for smaller things in safe conditions as a safety precaution before doing something risky later. Aside from the risks of making one their greatest limitation is that they can be broken by mundane means or even a single instance of magical failure.

Ring spells were included mostly to make magical protection or containment circles. You can do some neat, and potentially indefinite, things with that. A simple application is a boundary circle to limit a fire from catching outside, or to provide a safe space inside, a circle: You could layer a smaller circle inside a larger circle like that to contain flames, poisonous gases, or whatever in a ring between the inner and outer circles. A more dubious application (for someone not worried about the Quaesitoris) is to trap a demon or a fairy since this may get rid of them for longer than a more conventional disposal method--in the right conditions a circle could last centuries. Creative abuses to make a permanent ring of flames which doesn't require fuel, for instance, aren't entirely out of the question either.

*Spell botches are bad. They are very, very bad but sometimes entertaining. Creatively causing them for other wizards can be an effective, if risky, method of assassination. Assassinating wizards is generally a bad idea though.

>- Do ritual spells that are made permanent on an item count towards the max enchanting vis used on it?
No.

>- If you are enchanting an item multiple times consecutively, do you need to re-prepare it for each enchantment?
You can only prepare an item for greater enchantment once, or enchant it with a lesser enchantment once. The amount of vis used to prepare an item for greater enchantment sets a maximum limit for enchanting that item in the future. You could break the enchantment and start over, but that would waste all the vis previously used.

The costs in vis for various things in the game, and the availability of vis, is one of the main issues of disagreement about how to run Ars Magica. We're getting to that question when the group meets to discuss the starting house rules.

>>81632
>- How large is a 'pace'? (I would guess around two feet or so, since Wall of Protecting Stone is four paces high, which would be comically small if a pace were around one foot.)
b : any of various units of distance based on the length of a human step http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pace
I was planning on using a metre, even though this is inaccurate, because I like modern units. A reputable answer is hard to get: The last time I tried looking it up the best I found was speculation that it was roughly .86 or .92 of a yard (a yard is three feet, approximately 0.9144 metres to people used to modern units). The uncertainty helps me feel justified in using a metre, but if someone cares about it I can be pushed to try and be more accurate and use some horrible mess of decimal values for conversion.

>- Would touching the ground with your shoe count for Touch range, or would that be Reach?
It's arguable. Do you think of your shoe as part of yourself? I'd err on the side of reach unless I have special reason to accept that it's touch range: You're touching the ground with your shoe and not touching the ground directly.

>- There are high level Corpus spells for long distance teleportation, but is short-distance teleportation a thing?
Consider that there is a hidden, secondary distance of 'arcane' range in that spell for its effect power. That would mean that a L30 variant would cover sight range, L25 would cover far range, L20 would cover near range, L15 would cover reach range, and less than L15 is pretty much pointless. (L10 Minute Magical Shuffle? L5 Spell That Does Nothing?)

P.S. I am looking forward to writing out, "The wolf explodes everywhere as a shower of burnt fur and steaming-hot giblets," when someone casts an appropriate spell to make that happen.

P.P.S. I'm stuck on writing the next update, partially from being busy, and partially because I'm lacking inspiration for what kind of wizard character(s) to make up and what to talk about. I'll get through it sometime this week, sorry for the delay.

I think I would be interested in a Terram specialist. Reading through the spell list, a number of Terram spells seem pretty great, like Earth's Carbuncle, or Teeth of the Earth Mother, or a shorter-lived version of Wall of Protecting Stone that appears standing on end and tilted so that it falls in the desired direction like an enormous stone flyswatter.

>L10 Minute Magical Shuffle
Maybe a fast-cast spell to duck or pivot away from an attack?

>Aside from the risks of making one their greatest limitation is that they can be broken by mundane means
Since you can use touch-range magic in the tracing of the circle, would it work to make a circle more durable by magically carving it into stone or metal? And if so, would it work to avoid concentration issues by using a touch-range magic item (assuming of course you had a ring application that was worth making a magic item for)?

>>81657
>I think I would be interested in a Terram specialist. Reading through the spell list, a number of Terram spells seem pretty great, like Earth's Carbuncle, or Teeth of the Earth Mother, or a shorter-lived version of Wall of Protecting Stone that appears standing on end and tilted so that it falls in the desired direction like an enormous stone flyswatter.
Can do. Keep in mind that the trees of a magical forest are generally not something you want to piss off. If we're picking a specialty for combat-effectiveness in a semi-allied magical forest perhaps animal, herbam or corpus would be better. (Necromancy gets bad press for a reason though, even if you make the corpses you use by magic instead of digging up graves.)

>L10 Minute Magical Shuffle >Maybe a fast-cast spell to duck or pivot away from an attack?
Sure, if you're crippled or otherwise better at that than dodging conventionally. Generally speaking, wizards aren't supposed to enter melee combat unless they want to: That's what grogs are for. Wizards are supposed to be the strategic targets captured for ransom or forces that affect things at the whole-battlefield level.

>Since you can use touch-range magic in the tracing of the circle, would it work to make a circle more durable by magically carving it into stone or metal? And if so, would it work to avoid concentration issues by using a touch-range magic item (assuming of course you had a ring application that was worth making a magic item for)
You can also cast your touch-range magic in advance. Let me sketch you a spell, this one uses perdo but muto would work just fine if used appropriately, and possibly rego as well:

L10 Touch of the Sculptor's Chisel
R: Touch D: Spec T: Small Perdo Terram, Vim requisite
This spell allows a wizard to carve out a divot in stone with the touch of their finger (or their talisman if they have one). This is useful to patient magi for stone-working but is intended for engraving writing, images and circles on stone instead (which it is perfect for). The special duration lasts up to sunset/sunrise but it may be dismissed at any time before that by the caster.
When used for stone-carving this spell would grant a +3 bonus to relevant skill totals and dice rolls for quality of result. A version made with a Rego requisite as well could be particularly useful for detailed carving work, adding the wizard's finesse talent in addition to the earlier +3 for relevant rolls and totals.
A L15 version without the Vim requisite would have the same duration and effects (including the early dismissal option).
In Ferramentum of Verditius’s version of this spell the leftover stone dust neatly piles itself into a single, perfectly conical pile no matter where it comes from. All of his spells may be recognized by their orderliness.

The Target attribute of spells that conjure items or effects seems kind of vague, so I guess how it would work is decided on a case-by-case basis for each spell by the Storyteller? For example, would increasing a Crystal Dart's become a larger projectile if changed to Individual make a bigger projectile, or a shotgun-like spray for Group? Would Ball of Abyssal Flame explode in an AoE if changed to group, and would an individual target reach range fast-cast Creo Terram spell make a big enough rock to protect you from that explosion?

Talismans extend your Touch range but not your Reach, right? (I suspect that if it did extend your reach, that could get silly fairly quickly by taking a spool of thread as your Talisman.) If that is the case, can you cast a Reach spell to something that is outside your Reach range but physically touched by your Talisman?

>>81683

>The Target attribute of spells that conjure items or effects seems kind of vague, so I guess how it would work is decided on a case-by-case basis for each spell by the Storyteller? For example, would increasing a Crystal Dart's become a larger projectile if changed to Individual make a bigger projectile, or a shotgun-like spray for Group? Would Ball of Abyssal Flame explode in an AoE if changed to group, and would an individual target reach range fast-cast Creo Terram spell make a big enough rock to protect you from that explosion?
Normally, the exact nature of the effect is determined by the gaming group in discussion with the person with the original idea in this sort of case. Storyguide decisions are mostly intended to handle small questions so that play can continue without undue issues. I'd be acting as QM and most of the troupe is in our collective imaginations however so in this quest that would be a GM/DM decision scenario. Many of these are surprisingly complicated questions.

-Target sizes are small for things the size of a sword or a dog; a creature of size -2 or smaller is something I'd consider 'small' with regard to target classes. Individual is somewhere around the size of a person, group is some arbitrary 'large enough to hit a group of up to a dozen people' size that I'm just gonna say is roughly the size of a peasant's hut, and past that you have two, "Really damn large," target sizes that are quite arbitrary (farmer's hovels/huts usually only consisted of a single room, so structure and room would do the exact same thing inside one) and 'everything the caster sees' which is slightly less arbitrary. Usage of 'small' and 'individual' can sometimes be a bit lopsided or wonky for some effects, like Ball of Abysmal Flame which should either be target 'small' and not have the blinding effect or instead not have the three-round holding effect at L35 (that's halfway to a duration upgrade to diam). I figure that three-round-holding feature was grandfathered in because of its pre-hermetic origins, and is a minor breach of Hermetic limits of what you should be able to get for a given power level.

-I've particularly noticed that some Herbam spells utterly break their guidelines, and there is an inexplicable lack of detailed creo herbam guidelines for wooden products and combat creo herbam spells: Piercing Shaft of Wood should be L20 even with sight range on its target distance, and it should be possible to achieve the same thing with creo herbam, rego requisite as well (making the staff-sized missile). A pretty hard guideline for combat spells has generally been that if it's an attack-through-medium effect and it's better than an equivalent level ignem spell it's too good, and it may still be too good even if it's equal. (Crystal Dart is equal.)

-When you change the target of a spell without otherwise adjusting the spell that doesn't increase its intensity of effect. That means that the abstract, rules-related side of spell creation says increasing the target would not directly do more damage than the old version to a person targeted by the spell. What it would do instead is make it possible to hit more people, more easily hit a given person due to larger sized effect, partially-circumvent lesser protections by attacking more broadly than an arrow point, and damage a larger thing (like a building) more broadly/effectively.

-Target upgraded Crystal Dart could be different things: 1) A spray of projectiles instead of the single one; 2) a larger crystal that shatters into a spray of smaller fragments as it reaches the target; 3) one dart, but it passes through the target and attacks again (reference; Arlen Spector's hilarious 'Magic Bullet Theory'). There may be other possibilities as well. You'd have to upgrade it twice to Group to directly affect multiple people though. Upgrading Crystal Dart once to individual would just give it a secondary effect like a cloud of shards that tears soft materials like cloth and leaves within five paces, or hitting as a barrage that halves the effect of armor the target is wearing. In general the size guideline of 'individual' means roughly the size of a person, and bigger than a 10-kilo dog.

-Considering how the effect of Ball of Abysmal Flame works I'd agree with that characterization of a target-group L40 upgrade of the spell: An apple-sized ball of flame that quickly expands into a large burst when it hits a target.

-A fast-cast creo terram of individual size as a defense against a group-sized Ball of Abysmal Flame would probably result in you getting singed around the edges if you didn't make your Parma Magica roll. The size of the fireball being bigger than 'small' also risks secondary fires for your belongings, person and surroundings. How badly any of that happens would depend on the specific level of effect you managed, how well the item-resistance of your dirt shield held up against the fireball, and possibly other things. A group could argue about this one for a while and I'd want more specifics before trying to answer it fully. Some things are certain: You're well within five paces if you're having to defend against the damage at all, so if your creo terram wasn't enough to block all the damage and your Parma Magica wasn't good enough you get to roll that blindness check. (All else being equal I'd want to respond with a touch/near, group-sized creo aquam with a rego requisite to carry it out to where the ball was coming from to nullify your Blast of Abysmal Flame, that would be L5 Creo Aquam with a Rego requisite, and it would explode with a really nifty steam-blast effect.)

-More generally, wizards do not normally engage in combat with each other unless (at least) one of them is breaking the law or both of them agree to step outside of the law so they may fight without legal penalty. This is why you can't serve mortal powers, can't deal with infernal powers at all, and are not supposed to fight with fairies: Those things can lead to conflicts with other wizards. Not all wizards are careful to avoid breaking the Code of Hermes though.

>Talismans extend your Touch range but not your Reach, right? (I suspect that if it did extend your reach, that could get silly fairly quickly by taking a spool of thread as your Talisman.) If that is the case, can you cast a Reach spell to something that is outside your Reach range but physically touched by your Talisman?
Congratulations, you have just hacked an inadequately-defined exception. Apply this skill to the source code of major parts of the internet and you too could find the next Heartbleed bug!

This issue would require a group decision because there is no main-book support for how to answer this question. Consider that someone could enchant an entire ship as a greater enchantment, and then turn it into their talisman. With that you could have touch range on things that are outside of far distance, or even not visible yet still touching your talisman. If I were asked for a decision I'd say that talismans extend your touch range instead of any of your other ranges, because interpreting it more expansively can break how ranges work in the game as you have observed, and it doesn't say it extends any other ranges besides touch either.
The bigger issue you're pointing at is that the talisman and greater magic device systems may break the normal limits for magic power. Specifically, they can bend or break range limits and the stacking of enchantment bonuses can (in very expensive greater devices) make levels of magic effect possible that otherwise wouldn't be. Perhaps a better answer to this problem is to house-rule that talismans don't exist and/or further limit greater magic devices. That sort of reasoning can easily go too far though: Parts of the game that have good reason to exist can break without anybody meaning for that to happen.

In 'normal' practice with an in-person Ars Magica troupe the decision I'd make before starting on that question is whether or not to glare at the person who just broke the rules of Ars Magica. Generally speaking it's not hard or impressive to break the rules of Ars Magica so there's a sort of unspoken agreement to try not to break the setting: We didn't hear Tolkien talking about how Gandalf breaking Saruman's spool of thread took away his power. Naturally I don't expect TGChan to hold to this at all, so I was planning on handling that sort of issue through some combination of setting-push back, character limitation against handling grossly anachronistic things, and lampshade-hanging.
(A spool of thread is pretty fragile, threads get caught in the wind easily, it's a tiny cloth object so the enchanting limit is too low to enchant it properly for control and durability, and what happens when a clueless maid mending the magi's socks runs out of thread?)

> Unstructured Spellcasting + Rune Magic
I am not quite sure what the the major advantage of that is; probably because it seems worse at combat and I am not yet sure what wizards do aside from research, enchanting, and fighting.

> Naturally I don't expect TGChan to hold to this at all, so I was planning on handling that sort of issue through some combination of setting-push back...
I feel like if it is only Touch range that is extended than there isn't too much of a problem with that; an extremely large or long talisman would be cumbersome and potentially vulnerable to non-magical effects (like the thread). My mind was just boggled for a bit at the possibility of your potential range from Reach increasing.

About weird targeting, is it possible/permissible to cast spells through a physical object you can see through, like a conjured glass wall or a boulder you can see through with magic (like the level 20 Intellego Terram example)?

>>81750
> Unstructured Spellcasting + Rune Magic
>I am not quite sure what the the major advantage of that is; probably because it seems worse at combat and I am not yet sure what wizards do aside from research, enchanting, and fighting.

What else a wizard does depends on their personality: Mythic Europe is big, there are kings, knights, peasants, university professors, many folks attached to the church in various ways, dragons, fairies, demons, cultists, pagans, and who knows what else all hiding in the 'known parts.' You can talk, harass, investigate, swindle or whatever to whichever of those you see fit to deal with. Moorish sorcerers have strange lore in Spain if you want to get involved there, there is all kinds of weird stuff and strange scholarship available in the holy land and the east territories around it, and there is plenty of fighting too if you go to either of those places when there's a crusade happening or some other kind of military campaign. You could instead be a bit more longsighted and sedentary and take up selective breeding, landscaping and socioeconomic manipulation as a form of 'gardening' of the country your home covenant resides in. Most people pursue their arts as a means to an end even though the nature of the Order of Hermes encourages focusing on the art of magic itself. Possibly you are not a free agent, or you seek membership in various groups for various reasons, or political power and prestige amongst your fellow magi? Apprentices get bored over the fifteen years of an apprenticeship just like other people do, and usually have dreams and ambitions outside of practicing magic as well unless they're an autistic, Bonisagus monomaniac usually. If nothing else magi are often known to carry on grudges for longer than a normal human lifetime.

As far as Metallum goes, I was figuring he was rather OP. He starts off with double the points for art scores, and multiple different supplemental stats that add in to his spontaneous magic. More generally, you have to get your flaw points from somewhere, and one of the ways to keep Ars Magica character gen from getting boring, aside from making up ever more house-ruled virtues and flaws, is to try and use virtues and flaws you normally never would. He also has spontaneous magic talent that lets him get away with not having formulaic spells perhaps: Diedne Magic, Runecaster and Concentration over time should increase to a serious bonus. The runecasting allows him to divide by two without a stress roll, which is a bit important.
If you want to pick one or more different flaws to get the -6 flaw points from unstructured caster that's a perfectly reasonable idea. Considering how thin the selection of virtues and flaws is you should feel free to suggest something that isn't there: Poor Memory is too boring for me to use it on more than one character without prompting.

>I feel like if it is only Touch range that is extended than there isn't too much of a problem with that; an extremely large or long talisman would be cumbersome and potentially vulnerable to non-magical effects (like the thread). My mind was just boggled for a bit at the possibility of your potential range from Reach increasing.
>About weird targeting, is it possible/permissible to cast spells through a physical object you can see through, like a conjured glass wall or a boulder you can see through with magic (like the level 20 Intellego Terram example)?

That depends on the nature of the spell: Conjured, altered or controlled media that travel to the target would obviously be blocked by a physical barrier, so spells like Mighty Torrent of Water probably no. Talons of the Winds is arguable but as long as you can perceive the breeze you want to turn dangerous I don't see why not. Directly acting spells like mentem with the 'eye' range and rego/perdo/muto/intellego animal/corpus/(whatever) ought not be affected as long as you do see the target clearly and directly without having to scry them. It all depends on the matter of what you are affecting to do what and where; are you acting indirectly on your ultimate target through some other effect that could reasonably be blocked? The spell 'Conjuring the Mystic Tower' is illustrative here: It's a ritual because it creates a tower with a solid, dug-down foundation underground where the caster can't see, but if it sat on the ground above that its power level is exactly right to do the same thing without being a ritual. (It would also be in grave danger of falling over unless you prepared the site for it first.)