>>24797
Y'all be right here yo, sorry for losin' my temper like that
As stated before tho, we have a groundwork thing already laid out: the first game is gonna be an rpg. A standard, turn-based and easy-to-make rpg, simply to get a first step to stand on.
Now lets cease the bickering and actually get on that:
let's start with the goal and character and all that, what should we do here guys?

>>24799
Personally, I think the Sci-fi SRPG is a better idea. We can still start simple with the first simulation, but if we have someone who can make an engine, why limit ourselves to a standard one?

>>24798
Yeah, dating sim elements is partly what I meant by the visual novel parts. I mean, this is tgchan; no matter what we make someone's gonna wanna hit on it.

The simulation idea talked about before, plus the thought of a character development focus, suggests to me something like some sort of vat-grown entity being ran through test simulations, or something like that.

Probably interactions with others also undergoing those simulations, to maintain some consistent relationships between simulations.

>>24801
The first sim can still be a normal person thrust into a dangerous situation; to teach the vat-grown, likely combat-intended entity some empathy for what would otherwise be collateral damage.

>>24799

If by 'we laid out the groundwork' you mean 'you said that we needed someone on RPGMaker when there seemed to be more discussion re: tactical games,' then yes we layed out the groundwork as a regular turn-based rpg.

>>24802
Popping a vote in for this idea
vat grown entity is gonna allow for the absolute highest creative input on its design and persona in my view which might actually allow us to implement some sort of customization tool when The Big Main Storyline gets rolling and going and such

We should for now keep that on a backburner though, and focus on our scenario with the sim.

I am personally thinking our scenario could go like this:

Simulation 1 Hero Guy, herein referred to as dickbutt masterson, is fixing up a machine, IE an air filtration system or a food storage thing or what have you, when he realizes that he needs to buy a replacement part.
Outside his home is some sort of harsh landscape (I am thinking perhaps a Serenity-style sci-fi wild west settlement type thing) with some mildly-troubling beasts that prey on travelers.
He gets some kind of weak personal weapon, then heads out for the long journey to the next town over that has the parts, about a three day journey.

Along the way he is assaulted by a soldier of some kind perhaps, and barely makes it out alive before passing out in the woods and perhaps getting taken in by a hermit to get patched up. Emphasis should be made here that this is a VERY COMMON THING.

He then completes his journey, and it ends with the poor dude buying his part and starting the treck home on some sort of one-way transport.

Thoughts?

>>24804
Another thing to add is perhaps a vigilante fighting bandits in their headquarters, and the fight spills onto the streets, nearly killing Dickbutt. This would emphasize the 'be careful what you're doing, there are people around' part of the training.

>>24805
Ooh, I like that! Alright, someone should set us up some sort of notepad type dealy so we can get this stuff written down for easy access, perhaps add something to the original post with the link to said thing later
maybe a google docs thing?

I also apologize for flipping shit.

I do not, however, apologize for writing massive posts. (massive post warning)

I’ll probably be less longwinded once we properly pin down an idea.


Welp, I'm a bit late to the idea train, and 'simulation' seems to be a pretty good concept to work from, but right now it seems like most of you are thinking about it as just a framing device. You know, just a reason to explain why a character would actually be in all of these different situations.

So I've been thinking about how the concept of a simulation could affect a game mechanically. Like, what you could do with gameplay rather than story to explore the concept of simulations.

IDEA #1: What kind of person would need to be put into simulations of 'normal' situations?

The protagonist is a soldier/marine/whatever returning from a military operation that can really only be described as a clusterfuck. As such, the protagonist does not consciously remember most of what happened and they're wracked with PTSD and general craziness. They're not reintegrating into normal society very well, so they are placed into a reintegration program involving simulations.

So, the first half of the gameplay would be the rehabilitation simulations, which would basically just be like, talking to people, fetch quests, puzzles and minigames, with zero combat. Everything would be kind of feel-good, society would be a little idealized, and everyone gets along just fine.

The second half of the game would be the protagonist remembering parts of the military operation, and would be heavy on combat, strategy, and generally fucked up situations. Like dealing with a hostage situation that goes south, operating under orders to take no prisoners (and having people try to surrender to you), and generally trying to make the best of situations where there is no 'good' outcome.

So, from the start of the game, the distinction between the two would be very clear. Like, you finish a day of simulation and wake up to a memory. As time goes on, the distinction would become less clear, and events within the simulation itself, like loud noises or familiar sights or whatever, would trigger relapses into war-memories. So like, you might be in a simulation where you have to get a part from a store down the road for whatever, but the second you step outside you're in full combat gear and being shot at. And then, upon acquiring the part and making it back to the building, everything is simulation-normal again and the simulation doesn't acknowledge your memory-hallucinations.

At the most messed up you could have both things existing side by side at the same time, so you'd have to like, flip burgers and complete simulation activities while dodging memory gunfire and grenades.

Blah blah blah, it all leads up to some big reveal about what actually happened, which would be something along the lines of the protagonist trying to be heroic and save the world and totally fucking it up.

And then you wake up and have some sort of real-world conclusion level. I dunno.

Anyways, the main point would be the contrast between the calming, upbeat simulation setting and the high-stress, depressing war setting.

Engine wise, I'm thinking maybe something like Hotline Miami, what with the topdown perspective and mouse aiming. This'd give you lots of room for adventure game type puzzles for the simulation half, while still being suited to the combat of the war half. A dialogue system similar to that in fallout (or any other game with dialogue trees) would easily fit on top and allow for character interaction.


IDEA #2: What kind of person would need to be put into simulations of messed up situations?

The protagonist is a settler/colonist average joe on a colony ship that is headed to some shithole death planet. En-route to the planet, they undergo simulation training to help prepare you for life in the shittiest place ever.

Gameplay would switch between simulation activities, like going to get a part, being mauled by an animal, seeking help and eventually completing your task, and real-world on-ship activities. Ship activities could be anything from team building exercises with your fellow settlers to flirting with whoever to dealing with minor ship emergencies. Maybe somebody freaks out over how they're basically condemned and tries to hijack an escape pod or something.

A big part of the shipboard time could be about talking to your fellow colonists about the simulations and dealing with the fact that you will all probably die on this death planet.

Much like idea #1, the main idea would be to show the contrast between the relatively calm life on the ship and the significantly less calm simulation settings.

With this you could have totally different playstyles between the ship sections and the simulation sections because they aren't so closely related. So, running around on the ship could play like a point and click adventure game, while simulated segments could work more like an SRPG.




IDEA #3: A simulation where the user/patient isn't supposed to be aware they're in a simulation.

The protagonist is a vat-cloned soldier in simulation training. Now, this is a society that uses vat-cloned soldiers, so the simulation isn't particularly good or even very accurate. It's more or less half shitty training manual half propaganda, and is pretty much more about teaching the soldiers to hate their enemies than it is about actually teaching them to fight.

Basically, you'd hit all of the standard video game tropes and parody the hell out of them.

Like, oh no, your hometown that you totally grew up in was burned down while you were off on an errand, and your stern but loving father figure has been mortally wounded! With his dying breath, he bequeaths to you an ancestral family weapon which is rumored to have once been used by heroes of old! (The weapon in is a standard issue military side arm.) But that alone is not enough! After rigorous training with the heirloom, you must set out on a quest to retrieve the rest of the legendary hero's equipment! (A combat knife, an assault rifle, grenades, spacefuture night vision goggles, and maybe a uav controller or something) You finally save the day from the evil threat (the enemies of the nation funding the soldier program) but are mortally wounded in your final fight! You are entombed in the great hall of heroes to be awoken when the world needs you next! (The hall of heroes looks exactly like a standard cloning vat chamber)

So yeah. Parody and satire the hell out of everything and generally make fun of the concept of simulation trained vat-cloned soldiers.

Again, this could work for most game types. Something Zelda styled with a retrieve new item and mcguffin from dungeon format could be interesting to play with.

And a few random other thoughts/ideas.

How does the simulation respond to failure? There isn't any reason for the protagonst to forget what happened between the last save and failure, so playing with the protagonist remembering things from failed attempts at a simulation could be fun. Maybe like, even have the simulation chastise the protagonist for trying to cheat with knowledge they shouldn't have yet, like the combination to a lock or something similar.

IS the protagonist aware that they're in a simulation? Do they try to metagame the simulation like a gamer would metagame a videogame? Do they bother flirting with people they know aren't real? If they don't know about the simulation, how do they reconcile failed attempts and whatever, and how do they react upon finding out that everything they know is fake?

Similarly, are they in the simulations voluntarily or have they been forced into it? If it's voluntary, why have they chosen to do so?

How do the experiences of the simulation affect how the character acts outside of it? If simulation is a common technology, how does it affect other characters?

Simulations don’t really mix well with character interaction/flirting. I mean, if half the characters aren’t real, what’s the point? It’d either have to happen outside of the simulation, or between real-world characters that are in some sort of co-op simulation.

Simulations also don’t really work well with exploration. In-story, everything in the simulation had to be programmed by someone, so having secrets or whatever in a military training simulation would be a little weird. Again, exploration could happen outside the simulations, be that in whatever the real world is or, as is the case in my first idea, within the protagonist’s memories/dreams/hallucinations.

Also, I’m still not sure that a SRPG is the best fit for whatever we end up doing. It seems like it would limit us to a very rigid template of overworld, turn based battles, and dialogue/cutscene when it wouldn't be that much more difficult to have real time combat or sneaking or whatever and whatever weirdness we desire.

Like, really, I think it'd be easier for me to make a compelling real time combat system like you might find in a Zelda or Metriod game than a balanced and interesting turn-based system like in Final Fantasy or Pokemon.

I'd still be down to try whatever if that's what we ultimately decide on, but eh.

>>24807
with all due respect, those are fantastic ideas that should DEFINITELY be explored, but at the same time we gotta keep things simple for now.

We shouldnt worry about the overarching plot just yet, more the first simulation.
I am bolding that because that is most what we need to focus on here, and our first thing more than likely HAS to be a bit simplistic in nature. No branching storylines, no real gimmicks to make it different (save for writing), just a simple get-from-point-a-to-b-without-dying sort of thing.
This is so we can prove we can ACTUALLY GET A THING DONE instead of just arguing about what-ifs for the future.

So, as I have said probably three times now: LETS DESIGN OUR SIM-PROTAGONIST, and get to work on the game already

Does anyone here have rpgmaker? we should try to get a sense of the levels we'll be making set up into a workable beta
we'll use the default tiles for now, for visualization purposes, but eventually we'll need an artist or fifty on board to redo those tiles into what will be the final release of the first thing.

>>24807
These are brilliant ideas. I'm kinda torn between the first and the second ones though. They tend to focus on different aspects that you listed. (1 is primarily character development and escapism. While 2 is more about exploration and probably selflessness) Personally I would go with #2 because I love strategy games and the different styles seem like they might work together well. First things first though, go with a game demo. (to prove you can make it and to add hype)

>>24807
I think I like #2 best as well, out of these three. And I'm in agreement on making a demo first, a 'first chapter only' thing to show we can actually get something done. As for SRPG vs real time, you're the only programmer right now, so I think we should go with whatever you're more comfortable.

In addition, in regards to character design: #2 and the apparent consensus of sci-fi implies that humanity has space travel. Are there any other known intelligent lifeforms, and is this the first ship sent out? If the answer to the former is 'yes', what sorts are there? If the answer to the latter is 'yes', what problems could the ship have (for the protag to deal with during out-of-sim episodes), given it is the first to set out on an actual journey? If the answer to the first question is 'no', has there been any encounter with life at all, or are the sim enemies merely theoretical for the sake of preparedness? If the answer to the second question is 'no', what kind of planets have already been explored, and how far out has humanity colonized?

Some things to consider for the protagonist's background design, and that of the setting.

Without a doubt a demo/first chapter thing will be the way to go with this.

Basically, once we settle on an idea and lay out some basic mechanics, I'm thinking what I'll do programming wise is set up the engine with the most basic features possible and see what works from there.

I mean like, movement, collision, loading levels, basic dialogue, and a basic obstacle like breakable bushes or something similar depending on the game type. All lovingly rendered in the most finely coloured rectangles you have ever seen.

So yeah. I figure we should wait for a few more opinions on whatever idea, then figure out some definite mechanics beyond basic moving and talking and how they’ll play, and then make up a demo. Hell, once we settle on an idea, I’ll probably do another hugeass post outlining the opportunities and limitations that different gameplay perspectives and styles would offer. Like, realtime vs turnbased or isometric vs side scroller vs top down vs three quarter.

And Archivemod, honestly, you seem to have a bit of a hardon for rpgmaker. I’m sure it’s possible to do amazing things with it, but seriously man, I don’t want to brag, but I can pretty much code any style or mix of 2D engine styles for you from scratch, and probably have something functional within an afternoon or two. Isometric real time action? Done it before. Virtual novel? Done it. Topdown zombie survival/twin stick shooter? Done it. Shootemup with a stupid time control gimmick? Done it.

Yeah, I don’t have anything immediately available to prove it. If you demand proof, I could port something to a format that would work in-browser without too much trouble. Or we can figure out an idea, hammer out some core mechanics, and I can spend the time putting together something for the actual project.

And really, an rpgmaker game will take roughly the same amount of work on art, writing, sound, and level design as any game engine I happen to make. The programming is the only bit that changes significantly, and I have that covered.

Although, as a warning, I have midterms this Thursday and Friday. If we somehow manage to sort everything out before then, the coding will probably have to wait until the weekend.

>>24811
I think the thing with rpgmaker was because this was inspired by those sorts of games from the indie game thread.

You can do interesting things with RPGMaker, but we'd still be working within the engine's limitations, not to mention that it only runs on Windows. In fact, as an engine, it's rather limited compared to other game engines--its main feature is relative ease of usage. A custom engine can be done to the specifications we need rather than forcing us to work within its confines, not to mention being potentially more portable.

I'm not totally wedded to the idea of a SRPG, though I'd argue that there're other paradigms than "overland, battle map, dialogue". For example, taking a page from roguelikes and having everything happen in turn-based time. Nevertheless, I'm perfectly cool with not doing a SRPG.

I'd generally prefer any realtime engine to focus more on thinking than dexterous fingers, including potentially an option to enter orders/actions while paused. However, I'm not completely wedded to that and I've enjoyed action games.

Thinking about it, I like #2 because it gives the most potential for character interaction that actually matters, not to mention that it actually fits the scenario already proposed as the first simulation. Said scenario might need a little modification, but overall I can easily see it being used as a colonial simulation.

Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be a brutal hellplanet, just a dangerous but survivable planet. This would actually be easier to justify for training purposes than pretty much shipping off people just to die a certain death (not to mention the expense involved in shipping people off to an almost certainly lethal planet). Even Slaughter Quest doesn't have you being shipped off to an elaborately expensive execution.

Also, while there're good reasons for a simple first scenario, basic dialogue isn't a particularly complicated thing to code. We could easily have a shipboard character talking you at least through the tutorial stage.

Also, regarding the first scenario's simulated protagonist, it's worth considering that the vast majority of games feature a white (or light-skinned anime style) male as their lead. I'd prefer to see something different. We can talk customization for further games, just bringing up a thought here.

Of course, an easy copout would be using a made-up race without visible differentiation between males and females. It's pretty damn easy to offer a gender selection then, heh.

>>24811
Ah, my bad then. I was under the impression we HAD to use it for some reason, ahaha. I do think a standard run-of-the-mill sci-fi rpg is best right now, but as with most things if people think otherwise on these things I'll go along with it haha

>>24816
I like the idea of just a random human settler of some kind, but beyond that I dont see much problem with whatever y'all might have in mind yo

I feel like it might be better (and easier to make) to only have our main char in the fights for the first quest/demo. (even if it's a strategy rpg) It would make the later addition of allies (and their usefulness) more apparent{can't think of appropriate word} if the guy goes without for a while; it would also make more sense (from a training perspective) if everyone started out on their own to learn the basics of the system. (fewer distractions and all that)

>>24820
I was thinking the same, actually. Just a single dude going out into a dangerous world to buy a new part for the thing that makes his food warm or something
I actually have most of the idea for how we are gonna do this laid out in my head, if you guys wouldnt mind a bit of a railroading here.

>>24821
Go ahead man, lay it out for us. Preferably in as much detail as possible.

Obviously, pretty much nothing is set in stone, but it'd be nice to have a detailed plan or outline to build on.

And what will we be wanting in music for the menu/first area? I'll try to put together something not-terrible using this program's built-in instrument emulator.

>>24824
Alright, so it starts as follows:
The story starts with a bunch of code flashing across the screen, ending in an ">initiate simulation" before the screen goes white, then fading back in to our good friend HERO X "herefore referred to as dickbutt.
Dickbutt is first found hunched over working on a machine of some sort, I am thinking perhaps a water purifier.
It sparks, causing him to flinch back. When he gets back over he realizes the pump casing is cracked, meaning he has to go buy a new one.
Living in what is the deep space equivelant of the wild west, this is a bit more of a task than just heading out to buy one across the street. He lives in a relative ghost town, not much other than a saloon and a general store making up what can be entered.

Once dickbutt is given a chance to stock supplies up at the general store and maybe grab some buffing items at the saloon, he sets off on the two-day-trip through the woods.
He makes it about halfway into the woods before he is beset by bandits, but he is able to barely fend them off at the expense of some rather heavy wounds. He manages to get further in before passing out from exhaustion, and wakes up being cared for by a hermit who has dressed his wounds. (This will serve as about the halfway point, as well as a shop, seeing as our hermit brews up some fine liquors and natural remedies)

Once you are done there, the hermit directs you on how to get to dickburg so you can buy your parts, and you manage to get there with no more hassle than normally expected.

Once you arrive, however, things are in a bit of chaos: some kind of bio-engineered monster (AKA the real main character) is spotted wrecking shit up, and dickbutt has to dodge the debris of the resulting chaos and gunfire and all that.
He gets caught by the monster, however, who slowly approaches him, but after a lucky shot manages to stun the thing long enough for authorities to capture it and drag it away.

After a brief bit of respite, dickbutt manages to FINALLY buy his part and catch a tram ride back home, then the simulation ends.

>>24826
still waiting on some feedback for this

>>24826
I just don't like the hermit idea for some reason. I really couldn't say why. Oh well, on to the rest.

If it's supposed to be a demo or first stage(which is a demo of whats to come to the player) shouldn't it start off with at least hinting why the main char is in a simulation? Especially if we go with there being other people on the ship that help him.

An idea I had was an intro describing the planet or their reason for the trip. Stating something about needing extra training to survive the harsh planet maybe. Interior shot of the simulation room before it switches. Someone wishes us luck or gives us a last bit of advice before we start. Then the simulation program start thing. It would give insight as to why we are in the simulation, and that there are other people on the ship.(who we will interact with later) (I don't know for sure though, I'm not a writer)

>>24826
Ok so the plan is for us to be Dickbutt fighting the bio-engineered monster which we will paly as later on or would we be the bio-engineered monster playing as Dickbutt fighting ourselves? The way you worded it makes me wonder who we really are in the game.

I also have to agree with >>24834 here about the hermit, it just kinda feels forced. Might be better to say that some people traveling from whatever town we're going to, to some other town for whatever reason run into us along the way so they patch us up and feeling as they met there good deed quota for the day decide if you want any more supplies from them you will have to buy/trade for them. Don't know just an idea.

Oh and if anyone is still looking for a reason why someone would send people to death planet just say that the planet is high in resources so it makes any risk or casualty worth it, at least on a business standpoint.

>>24835
The 'bio-engineered monster' is a representation of the protagonist's potential for collateral damage, to encourage caution. Nearly being killed by their analogue's foolishness deters doing so to others, by putting them in another's shoes. Literally.
(If the protagonist is a synthetic, the bio-engineered monster may very well be the actual protagonist. I pictured it appearing more like a 'bionic man' rampaging after some petty crook or whatever though, if the protag is human.)

And I agree on the hermit, too cliche. The travelers sound good.

>>24836
aight. good ideas yo! I like the idea of replacing the hermit with travelers.
And yeah, that is indeed the goal of this: putting bioman into a civvy's shoes

Soooo... are we still colonist even as the bio-man or what? Cause what I'm getting here is we started out as some kind of Vat-grown thing for the military being trained/taught through simulations, to a human colonist taking simulations to prepare for the hostilities of the world we are about to colonize, back into ... what a Vat-grown colonist?

You know that could work, At this point in human history they have found out the means to create bio-engineered species and make them stronger and more resilient then humans and send them into dangerous areas (like death planet here) to set everything up so it's much easier and smoother when the humans finally arrive on the scene. Could make for an interesting story. A whole ship filled with these bio-creatures heading for an extremely hostile planet and there goal is to set up a base/settlement for the human colonist so they don't have to deal with the full brunt of whatever the planet has to throw at them since there little town will be already set up to protect them by the time they get there. And the simulations the bio-creatures train with are used just as much to teach them how to survive as well as to tech them never to harm humans. Could be useful for some charter building later on down the line.

>>24838
I was thinking more along the lines of something not human, actually. like
COMPLETELY non-human, save for self-awareness and the capacity to make decisions.
Again though, we should be focusing less on the overall plot and more on the first sim until we get there.
Staying on topic, I am still thinking a sort of firefly-esque wild west kind of thing would be best for the first area.

Okay, so.

Sorry for being slow with feedback, I went to take a nap after dinner yesterday and just sort of slept for 13 hours. Threw all of my plans off. I woke up hella rested, though.



So, ideas/ thoughts.

Honestly, I'm not really sold on the idea of bioman/ SPESS MAREEN yet. Most of you guys seem alright with it though, so here are my ideas relating to that:

So, firstly, why is bioman in this simulation? I'd assume it's either as a part of a training thing, and the simulations make up the soldier's early life, or it's some sort of punishment/corrective training, along the lines of anger management courses.

If it's initial training, it strikes me a bit odd that a company is basically labeling the bioman as a threat. It's like; the very first thing a living being is taught is that it is dangerous and is expected to cause harm unless otherwise taught. It’s presumptuous and prejudiced and all sorts of weird. If we go with this, I think we definitely need to consider what sort of society creates soldiers and basically tells them that without the help of society they would be little more than beasts.

It'd be interesting, but I don't think it's what you guys are leaning towards.

If it's corrective training, presumably the bioman has been in simulations before, and is also used to their normal, 'real world' strengths. I imagine being forced into scenarios where you are less capable than you should be, less than you remember being, would be incredibly frustrating. Long story short, there'd be a ton of room for characterization of the protagonist, but again, I don't think that's what you guys are really aiming for.

You also run into the questions: is this the bioman's very first simulation, and is he aware he is in a simulation? Both have pretty significant ramifications. If this is his first simulation why is it not just about getting used to the simulation? You know, learning to walk before you run get mauled by wild animals and taken hostage. If it's not, what is the bioman expecting out of this simulation? How does he react to being a powerless chump? If he doesn't know it's a simulation how does he react when he finds out? If he knows it's a simulation, does he act differently because of it? Everything is fake, why should collateral damage matter?


The main problem, I think, is that dickbutt isn't a very relatable main character. Being a vat-clone tends to do that to you.



So, what I'd do is make the whole thing as corporate and as utilitarian as possible. Like, if a current day cubicle-filled middle-management-stricken business were to organize a colonization effort with simulated training, what would that training be like?

The demo/first chapter of the game would go something like this:



Everything is dark.

Then, a light emerges from the darkness. As it grows closer, you begin to recognize the light.

It's a powerpoint slide.

Welcome to the simulatron 9000, it reads.

You click to the next slide. Only, you don't click. There's no mouse. There's no computer.

The slide changes regardless.

You read through a few slides with information about the company, the ship, and the colonization effort. At least you learn why you're standing in the darkness with a powerpoint slides when it gets around to the simulation slides.

When the slides finish, another bright light consumes your vision.

When you regain sight, you find yourself sitting on a simple wooden chair in a large, grassy field below a cloudless sky. An endless field. Arranged before you in a circle are 19 other people sitting on 19 identical chairs. They all look about as lost and confused as you do.

A voice speaks. It does not sound to have a proper source, and almost feels to originate from within your head.

It explains that you are now within your first proper simulation. You are to engage in a number of icebreaker activities to acclimatize yourself to both the simulation mechanics and you coworkers.

And so you do. [Tutorial! movement, basic combat, dialogue, saving, etcetera. Also, flavour and background text from talking to you coworkers.]

Icebreakers done, a door appears in the field. The voice, apparently a coordinator of some sort, informs you that entering the door will take you out of the icebreaker simulation and into your first solo training simulation.

You hang around and chat for a bit longer, then step through the door.

A large, unkempt man in stained coveralls stands before you. “Eh you.” He says. “Communications are out, a beast must've knocked down one of the lines again. You're gonna have to head over to the next town to pick up a part for this latest job.”

He shoves a clipboard containing the part specifications into your hands and waves you off. There's also a bit of cash for both the part and supplies for your journey.

And then the rest plays out pretty much the same as Archivemod's plan, but with the suggested changes and random wildlife instead of bioman at the end.



Two distinct gameplay segments, one of which is solely tutorial and world building, the other which is the first level proper with more world building on the place our protagonist is ultimately headed. A bunch of opportunity for silly dialogue and corporate nonsense, and a few good opportunities to show off how weird engaging in simulated activities would be.

What do you guys think?

Oh goddamnit, missed those last two posts.

Uh, nothing's idea could work pretty we'll with what I said about the simulations identifying the soldiers/biomen/whatever as monsters or beasts that must be trained.

I'm also cool with a wild west/scifi/frontier-ey setting for the first solo sim. I don't think anyone has contested that yet, so it'll probably be what we go with.

I think knowledge of the overall plot or at least overall premise is necessary for establishing the first scenario; the general informs the specific. Both the big and small picture are necessary. Not to mention that it allows for things like foreshadowing and whatnot, but that can probably wait for future installments.

Bio-engineered colonists isn't a new idea and has good reasons. Worlds with conditions more suitable for nonhumans or altered humans, mirror protein worlds (the Freefall webcomic has such a rationale for its genetically engineered protagonist--she's part of a test run before mass producing them to colonize such worlds), etc.

That said, if we just go with a nonhuman race that's cool. Plenty of precedent for that on TGChan. Regardless, there're reasons for training simulations--and I think I overall prefer a general colonist, engineered or not, over an engineered soldier. Still plenty of reason to have self-defense training to deal with dangerous wildlife and whatnot.

The scenario about travelers in a wild west-esque setting sounds good.

>>24842
Sweet, so we are decided on the first level then.

Going back to the engineered thing, y'all be raising good points.
Going on with the overarching plot, the reason I am pushing for the bio-engineered lifeform thing so hard is for quite a few reasons, starting with design freedom and going on through things like setting up morality conflicts, a chance to rebel against the creators, etc. and uh
well
basically I have very fond memories of tozolquest and it might affect my decisionmaking from time to time and you should slap me if it gets bad.
As I said, I aint the leader here and this is exactly why
I can be a right stubborn tool about some things without realizing it until too late

I'm gonna go with whatever you guys feel would be best here regarding WHAT the main character is, and while you are chewing that out I am gonna do some drafts of the overarching plot to allow for all the various simulations the main character creature will be put through/
I am thinking something themed around extradimensional travels, mainly because I have had no small amount of success using the idea of parallel realities as a driving narrative force in the past and also because of the nigh-infinite freedom in design this allows in writing.

>>24843
>>24843
The first of Many, MANY ideas whizzing about my skull right now is that the main character thing, (herefore to be refferred to as Bobby) is being designed as a sort of handle-it-all juggernaut for surviving the harsh and unpredictable universes that they are gonna be sending his kind into.

For example, one universe could have formed such that gravity as both a concept and a physical property of matter never came to be, meaning that all matter would immediately drift apart if based around that concept.
We are talking "if you fuck up you FUCK UP" level shit here, though with the right calculations and time it is easy to avoid such realities with such wildly varying physical properties that it would cause issues like that.

So what would fall within the realm of allowable transgressions against the base model of reality would be that enough similarity of some sort exists to our own universe to allow travel to the new one with little issue, and that nothing is particularly non-euclidean.

I figure that later on the character would be given news that some kind of shielding equipment had been created to allow for travel into the more dangerously differing universes without any harm coming to them, but they are highly temperamental and require much optimization and tweaking to fit the needs of that universe, allowing us a sort of progressible unlocking system for new worlds that makes enough sense beyond "you just cant go here yet" that it would allow for suspension of disbelief to remain throughly intact.

I have no clue how to start playing with concepts of alternative rules of reality however, so at best we might have to just stick with the whole "bizarre, alien landscapes" type deal.

On the plus side, this would also allow different games to be made in all different veins, such as topdown zelda type things, platforming, even galaga style things, and if we manage to get someone later on who is skilled in 3d modeling on board, perhaps even progress beyond that.

This is all of course hypothetical, being just my current stream of concious typing out of how this could play out.
It actually feels really good to really flex that scifi muscle again though, its sorta like scratching a really bad itch you didnt realize was there.

>>24844
I'm not sure If I like the alternate realities part, but here's something to add to it if you go for it.
Devil survivor: Strange journey did something similar to alternate realities in a way that I really like. It had different sectors you could phase to, and each had different themes and some special tiles, but keeping some overarching themes during the game. They also had different monsters and stuff too.(hard to describe, but the sectors felt both distinct yet similar; in a good way)

As for your reasons for the guy being bio engineered; design freedom is not as important I think. How many times have you played some Bethesda or elder scrolls games and spent upwards of 40 mins making a char look right, then not bother to look at him again. (other then to check out how he looks with bad ass weapons and armor) As for morality choices, you can have someone not sure of his choices (moral relativity) if he is put into a new and dangerous environment. He(or the player) would have to choose his morality in dealing with the new planet. (or the simulation thereof) I'm not entirely opposed to the idea, but I'm not convinced really. (or you can make the decision without me because I am neither an artist nor writer, and therefor would only be able to contribute ideas and in-game bug testing)

>>24848
no no man, as I said this is just one idea of many. I haven't fleshed many others out yet is all, but I do have other ideas. Honestly, it just depends on which one sticks hardest.

>>24838
I like this idea for the protagonist/crew, for reasons already stated. Questions of morality, design freedom, etc.

>>24848
It's not like Fallout though. The character won't be designed by the player, but bio-engineered super-colonists gives us a lot of design freedom. And between in-game sprites and character portraits/cutouts from the visual novel sections on the ship, the player will be looking at them a lot.

>>24844
I think different planets would be better than alternate realities, just in my opinion. I've used that idea as a cop-out so many times I've become jaded against it.

>>24850
true. Perhaps a link-to-the-past type "light world/dark world" type dealie?

well if we are coming up with plot ideas mine was that 'Bobby' and crew are heading out to this new world and for the first half of the game it is just the simulations and little intermission/visual novels where we get to know the crew more and maybe even set it up a bit like a dating sim if people really feel up to it. Mid-game we finally hit planet side and then have to set up the main base and fight off the local wild life all under a time limit of xx days/weeks/mouths or however long until the human colonist come. when they final get there the send down a security unit (guys with guns) to make sure the town you set up is really safe for the colonist. once they figure that yeah it's good and safe they hit a kill switch or something that kills off all or at least most of the bio-colonist and push them off into the wilds so they don't stink up the place and move the human colonist in. 'Bobby' and maybe a few others survive because of a glitch or luck or something.

The Idea with this is to build up relationships with all the other bio-colonist while the simulations drive home that you are never to harm a human then at the time of the human colonist arriving flip the kill switch killing off most if not all of 'Bobby's' friends forcing him into a conflict with himself. He has been taught since 'birth' never to harm a human and here they are and they just killed off all/most of his friends and he just doesn't know what to do. I think it would make for some good charter devilment material but I'll let you guys decide if this is a route we want to take or not.

>>24852
I like it. Possibly make the members of the crew 'Bobby' interacted with the other ones who survive, forming the 'party' for the second half of the game (planetside after colonization, either surviving in the wild or fighting against the humans), with the ones the player never bothered with dying. Sort of like a Devil Survivor deal.

>>24851
I think we have enough duality just with in-and-out-of-simulation sections. If we go with something more puzzle oriented, it'd definitely allow for more complex setups, but otherwise it'd just seem kinda gimmicky.

>>24853
I was kinda suggesting that some of the people 'Bobby' talks to die as well adding a little more punch to it in the end... or we could do something like in Mass Effect 2 where if you do certain things for a certain character they survive. And if you want to be a dick about it make it that everyone is savable but you can only save 1 - 3 of them to add something to replay-ability

>>24852
I LIKE this. EXCELLENT THINKING, man!

>>24854
Yeah, maximum of 3 savable no matter what. First three whose 'save triggers' are hit are those saved, the rest die, no matter how much you put into those afterwards.
And make none of this clear in-game. From a player perspective, the deaths are basically random.

>>24856
This is a really good idea
morality choices are only good when you don't know you are making them and that is exactly what i like to see

>>24856
No foreseeable/obvious way to stop it, yes. Random no. (having people randomly die is just terrible, but making it so you never knew you could save them in the first place is ok. I also just realized I called the game the wrong thing in my last post. My bad.) The rest of the idea (about the humans betraying them) is pretty cool.

>>24858
The fact that picking all the dickass options makes everyone else die also nails home the theme of selflessness.

>>24859

Basing anything off dickass options is just shitty infamous-style morality. If you want to make a game based around a morality system, you should really be trying to do it better than other games. Especially than games that do it badly.

Also, the idea of just saving whichever characters you trigger first is pretty bad because you will almost certainly end up in a trap where avoiding saving certain characters is only practical if you are actively a dick to them, which is stupid.

>>24860
I'm not talking 'kick puppies, murder babies', that's a psycho. I mean dickass as in inappropriate jokes, chastising people for instead of being supportive, refusing to let go of petty grudges, etc.

nothing 2013/06/08(Sat)12:44 No. 24862 ID: 9ddf68

>>24861
you know you don't have to make all of the options of getting someone to like or dislike you be verbal. Maybe one of the things to get someone's 'save trigger' is to do something in one of the simulations. I mean you are going to an extremely hostile planet so maybe if you can go through all the simulations without dying you prove to bio-colonist A you can get things done so PING 'save-trigger' reached. To reach Bio-colonist B's trigger you need to befriend Bio-colonist C first because B has a crush on C but is to shy to talk to C so you have to introduce them. And Bio-colonist D's trigger can be reached just by talking to the guy. These are just some idea's I've had but if we do set up the visual novel part as a dating sim you could also be able to give gifts to certain people to try and reach there save-triggers that way.

You really need to be careful of creating requirements that would require a guide to figure out. This is a common weakness of VNs. In fact, I think notions of a 'morality' system should be nixed--individual actions should instead have their own consequences, like being a jackass to someone might alienate them and make them less cooperative. You know, consequences that make sense instead of arbitrarily (or so it'll seem to the player) setting death flags for NPCs. And don't think they won't notice that people die just because you're mean to them.

>>24862
let's uh
let's NOT do this. We should keep the choices so that they are kinda obvious in hindsight.
A good example would be the recent game yahtzee put out, poacher, where you are presented with a lot of subtle things that you dont really realize are morality choices until they are pointed out to you.
For example, in one scene the groundskeeper for the mansion you hunt rabbits on attacks you for getting you stuck in another world, and I accidentally shot him on reflex. As it turns out, that was just as much of a dick move as I thought and it made the ending a bit more of a bitch for me.
We should focus on things that arent QUITE obvious, but are noticeable enough that they dont feel cheap.

And please, lets try to avoid circuitous routes like that entirely, I never enjoy them in games and I see nothing but complaints about them for the most part.

Alright, the betraying thing plus the rebuttal to my issues with a bio-baby were good enough to convince me that it might be the right way to go. We have some ideas for the general plot of the game, we have the theming and the general plot of the first level (scify western?), and we may be agreed on a test tube terror mc.

I think that
>>24840
would make for a great intro to the game. (with each not-person being given a designation or name and the mc's being chosen by the player) Does anyone object to it?
If we go for it we would probably need 2 songs for the intro (corporate or cheesey music for the slides and an idyllic one for the field), some art and writing for the slides (in retro style?), and a system for walking and talking.

>>24840
I am actually really digging this idea for an intro
>>24865
I can probably manage the writing part of that:

(slideshow starts, cheezy elevator music playing in background:) "Hello, soldier! Welcome to the first of MANY orientation slides presented to you by Tantalon Industries! Today marks the day of your first-ever training simulation, this first step towards the start of your career as a planetary terraprimer!
However, before we begin, we should have you meet your fellow Mod-clone troopers! You play nice, now!"
(The slideshow clicks off, and you wake up out of a sort of glass pod, then are directed by a rather bored man in a labcoat towards a room full of what will later become the people you work with. You get to know them, then the rest of 24840's post would play out.)

Now,clearly this has a lot of refinement to go through, making it sound more, well, GENUINE I guess, but I think it will do as a beta line until we get to the refinement stage of our first game here.

Bob 2013/06/09(Sun)19:37 No. 24872 ID: 2baea8
Audio Slideshow.mp3 - (762.78KB )

Tried to make something for the slideshow, and it came out as annoying elevator music with what is supposed to be electronic sounds from the simulator in the background. If we're not going to be doing anything commercial with this, and nobody better at this is interested, it may be better to rip off or remix music from other things.

>>24872
I might be able to help do some music work later(qualifications are 7 years as a tuba player, 6 months as a trumpet player, and almost no music creating experience); but I have homework due in an hour, and a paper and other stuff due tomorrow morning so it won't be done for a bit. Logging off the board til tomorrow.

>>24873
If I had actual music clips to edit together I might be able to do better. I'm definitely not a musician of any sort.

>>24871
Ok my question is would this all take place before we get on the ship, when are first arrive on the ship, or what?

I'm just wondering are we going to do the simulations before we even enter the ship or would we do them on the ride over. Because they way we've made it sound up to this point was that we were already on the ship and were doing the simulations not only to train us for the planet we are heading towards but also to kill time on the way over. I do like the intro Idea but I'm just a little confused on where we actually take the simulations.

Oh and since we are starting to get to the point of actually making music how far away would you say we are from concept art? Just wondering what the Bio-colonist would look like and maybe some environments. (like the ship we'll be traveling on)

Archivemod 2013/06/10(Mon)00:05 No. 24881 ID: ea4b0b
Audio Three_Sided_Coin.mp3 - (2.38MB , Three Sided Coin.mp3 )

>>24872
I'm gonna be dead honest here I really dont think that is gonna work yo
I might bring on a friend that knows how to work music well enough though, and here is a sample of their work so you all can judge for yourselves.
This one might work particularly well for one of the more action-intensive scenes, maybe a battle or a race later on in the series?

>>24874
I wouldn't say I'm a musician either. All of what I played was in band class and that ended 2 years ago.(no practicing outside school) We only had to write our own song 3 times in 7 years, so I have almost no experience in writing music; but since we were taught and tested on our knowledge of musicality, I think I'm somewhat decent at that. [I wrote out like 6 sentences here that show what went wrong with the song and what to know to do it a bit better next time, but decided against submitting it because it sounded a bit long. It's saved if you want to hear it later.] What program did you use to make the music?

>>24881
That's pretty good I guess. It'd be better if they turned the drum down and changed the ending a bit.(either adding some to make it sound like the end of the song or making it so that it could loop; because right now it just... stops.) Do they play the actual instruments or are they from a program?

>>24875
I think they're going to start once we're in space. As for concept art... no clue, maybe a week? (trying to be optimistic, it will probably be longer than that)

>>24881
Yeah, definitely better than anything I could do with this. If we can get them on board that'd be good.

>>24885
I'm using Garageband. It's supposed to be used to edit together clips from actual instruments (or to remix songs), but has an instrument emulator that I'm terrible with. I have rhythm when it comes to dance, not music.

>>24886
Aight, I'll try and get them on board then. Considering that is their first try, I think they'll be able to do just fine music-wise for us.
Let's start on the next step: we should mock up a few map ideas for our first levels.
I'm thinking we start with the town.
If nobody is against it I am thinking the introduction rooms are gonna just be simple unfurnished rooms so we can skip straight to the more open areas like, as I said, the town.
I am thinking for example that the initial starting area where the simulation itself actually BEGINS be a poorly-lit and slightly-ramshackle wood house with bits of machinery peeking out here and there, to go with the whole sci-fi western vibe we are going for.
Anyone wanna map this stuff out in mspaint or something for us?

Bob 2013/06/11(Tue)09:13 No. 24890 ID: 2baea8
File 137096719403.png - (63.23KB , 720x720 , butttown.png )

Simple map of my headthoughts.

>>24890
Alright, that seems about doable then
I'll get to work on some sand tiles, get it so we can make a mockup from that
Someone else needs to get the saloon houses up and going, since I cant draw houses for shit haha
Make sure they are made with scrap metal here and there, we are going for that "serenity" kinda vibe remember.

>>24891
Oh, forgot the saloon. Put that in place of the chapel, then.

Not so sure about the thought of having save points. There're things to be said for allowing saving anywhere. Such as the ability to quit quickly if something arises, allowing people to make play sessions as short as they need to (not everyone can devote hours at a time to a game), and not having to annoyingly replay entire sequences like fighting all the way to a difficult point and then listening to dialogue again.

Mind, the last point can be mitigated by good save point placement. As for the other points, that can be dealt with by having a specific quit command that saves to a special slot so you can resume. But the problem with this is that it can still be exploited, it's just more annoying to do so (force-quit via the OS's task manager then reload).

Mind, another solution is to make the intervals between save points short, no more than say ten or fifteen minutes, or even less. I think this would be the ideal way to handle save points.

>>24893
Save points after long boss dialogue is a nice thing to have, with a warning that says 'this is a boss fight, keep a backup save in case you aren't ready'.

I think we should have limited save points in the Simulation, but at any time outside of it.

>>24893
My idea is to have a save-anywhere function, but save points also heal y'all to full hp and whatever the shit else we plan on poppin' in.
They can also serve as a good reminder that "hey, you just beat your way through a massive dungeon, might be time to save your shit so you dont gotta redo that shiznit bro"

>>24895
I'm cool with that. I just got the random idea of save points acting as an exit point for simulations, but I think it'd make more sense to be able to pause them at any time to attend to stuff in the 'real world' (i.e. shipboard).

Just a heads up, I kinda fell horrendously ill and it might take longer than expected to get the sand tiles done because I can barely even SEE STRAIGHT right now
In the meantime, someone should try to get the buildings for that first area sketched up inside and out for us, if anyone would be willing to do that yo.
More deets the better yall

Archivemod 2013/06/12(Wed)17:00 No. 24914 ID: ea4b0b
File 137108161248.png - (0.99KB , 64x64 , Sand.png )

ok managed to knock out a sample thing for the sand and path tiles
a BIT iffy on the path look, might work that one out harder in the actual tileset, but as it is this would be about what it would look like.
Thoughts/feedback?

>>24914
I think the path should be a bit darker.

>>24915
Righto. Looking over it again it looks more like grass then a pathway. I'll save that for when the sand turnss over to grass on the way into the forest bit, and just start the path up from scratch again.
YAY RECYCLING

>>24916
Also, the light bit is sand, in case I misunderstood you there haha

Archivemod 2013/06/12(Wed)17:52 No. 24919 ID: ea4b0b
File 137108477144.png - (1.18KB , 64x64 , Sand2.png )

>>24918
Okedoke, reworked the path a bit, added a glowstrip and scattered dust over what I had after editing the colors
keeping the original handy for grass
I'll edit it later so it has corners and intersections for the path, but for now it looks good to me, but if anyone has feedback itd be vastly appreciated

>>24919
You might want to either make the sand tiles a bit larger or make the wavy line things in it a bit more noticeable.(maybe darken them a bit? or make them brown or orange instead of green?) Because as is, it just looks like a solid yellow square with nice edging.

Archivemod 2013/06/12(Wed)20:36 No. 24922 ID: ea4b0b
File 137109457143.png - (1.18KB , 64x64 , Sand3.png )

>>24921
Like this?

Archivemod 2013/06/12(Wed)20:37 No. 24923 ID: ea4b0b
File 137109464124.png - (1.18KB , 64x64 , Sand3.png )

>>24922
or is this better?

>>24923
Have you considered using RPG maker for this? The newest one is pretty damn powerful

>>24923
This one's better I think. It gives it a bit of texture.
>>24924
He (Archivemod) really wants/wanted to use it, but
>>24811
said he'd be willing to make a system for it. (ctrl+f maker for full convo about it)

>>24924
I think we already had a small argument about that actually
theres a new one though?

Larro 2013/06/12(Wed)22:18 No. 24928 ID: a68e3e
File 137110071531.png - (288.75KB , 1280x600 , aww snap son is that the latest rpg maker.png )

>>24925
Ah, I see.

>>24926
I wouldn't say 'new' new but it's the newest one that some people don't have. Solves all the problems the previous version had and it even allows you to create your own character sprites in the engine itself.

>>24925
That was less really wanting to use it and more my lack of an understanding that HEY WE GOT SOMEONE WHO CAN PROGRAM IT FROM SCRATCH

Why use RPG Maker? Game Maker has pretty much everything you mentioned and much more flexibility. Although I have no idea what happened to it since it got bought up, I stopped using it long ago.

>>24936
We aint usin rpg maker we cleared this up ages ago please stop
We have a programmer on board who said they'd be helping us make this thing up from scratch yo

I'm only gonna start discussing using game maker or rpg maker or whatever the hell if the programmer decides they want out of things before things are up man

Now can we please get back on topic and get those art assets done? We still need someone who isnt me to draw the houses and such
I am really only good at floor tiles and walls, most furnishings and such are completely beyond my scope and full-on houses might be even worse
Remember, if you get confused about size a tile can be any multiple of 32x32, or even smaller ate 16x16 if we wanna go microsize here.

We gotta get enough assets up to mock up our first few maps, yo. Once I am done fine-tuning the sand tiles I am gonna work on the interiors, lots of busted-up wood and metal grates and the like.

Meanwhile, I want some of you guys to work on some props and items and such. If you arent confident on animation, as long as it is mechanical there is a good chance I can modify it to be animated.

now lets GET GOING ON THE ASSETS so we can actually plug this shit into whatever thing the programmer is gonna make for us and get it rolling

ALSO: I made us a google doc to keep this shit organized, someone mod it into the original post for me please!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iw4SnFgDzvT5Wq4qFJsRFhb662Yo5U4r79456CSny4M/edit?usp=sharing

Aight, gonna try to hammer out some interior tiles, starting with the starting house I guess?

Archivemod 2013/06/14(Fri)11:23 No. 24960 ID: ea4b0b
File 137123422655.png - (1.52KB , 64x64 , wood2.png )

Aight got a sampler done

Archivemod 2013/06/14(Fri)11:29 No. 24961 ID: ea4b0b
File 137123457888.png - (1.39KB , 64x64 , wood.png )

>>24960
And with the dumb red pipe thing moved so you can see the full tile on the bottom right

Archivemod 2013/06/14(Fri)16:36 No. 24963 ID: ea4b0b
File 137125298168.gif - (7.32KB , 60x60 , MachineSpriteAnimated.gif )

>>24961
possible conept for the machine? I can easily make this broke looking later, fyi

Archivemod 2013/06/15(Sat)02:28 No. 24969 ID: ea4b0b
File 137128852484.gif - (4.43KB , 208x144 , PipeTileset.gif )

An old pipe tileset I made a long-ass time ago, might be of some use here as decoration or function somehow.

>>24969
Pipe fixing minigame?

>>24974
maybe, if it doesn't take away anything from the pacing.

>>24976
Less 'match the parts' more 'weld the leaks, change the valves, watch the pressure'

Pressure gauges at each pipe cap let the player know which ones are close to blowing, and valves are commonly placed, but pressure gauges are uncommon in the system. You have to figure out simple pressure physics to understand when to open/close which valves to make the whole system work/explode.

IF your goal is to destroy the system, the AI will be opening relief valves and managing regulators.
IF your goal is to manage the system, the AI will determine what parts will break down first.
IF your goal is to sabotage the enemy, the AI will prioritize responses for each fluid to make it hard to burst the right pipe caps.

This is a simpler idea than it sounds.

>>24982
The second would be good for repair minigames during the virtual novel ship portions of the game, which I believe was mentioned before. The other two would fit with the after-landing portion against the humans.
Depending on scenarios, all three could fit at some point or other during the sims.

>>24983
That sounds like an interesting idea, I think that would be a decent thing for while we are in the city, perhaps we need to do a small repair job to earn the part?

>>24984
could make for an intro part to the first simulation too. I see it as something like this

"Hey guy, you need to fix this. Some animal got in here last night and tore this place apart before we could chase it off"

(pipe minigame)

"Ah damn it all to hell, looks like it also broke the [item name here] and unlike those pipes this won't hold together with a quick fix. We're going to have to replace it. Go check the general store and hope they have the part in stock, otherwise you're going to have to head on over to [town name here] to get the part before this turns into a problem"

or you can put the minigame in somewhere else if you can make it fit. I mean this simulation is meant to prepare you for colonization so you might as well throw a few minigames in them if you plan on using them again later in the game.

Archivemod 2013/06/19(Wed)09:37 No. 24992 ID: ea4b0b
File 137165986965.png - (38.74KB , 716x924 , map layouts.png )

>>24986
Grand idea man, I would def. go in for this one. Also, I realized having the starting area hut segregated into its own screen might be a good idea, see diagram.
rectangle marks the borders of the screen, the top bit scrolls with you as you move up.

To-do: make some objects for decorating the landscape. Broken fences, hitching posts,
a thick wire running along the ground from the hut to other buildings perhaps?
maybe an optional side-branch that will lead to a housing structure where you can learn a special skill that carries over between simulations??

So is anyone else even gonna do anything here?

No, because this has been a pipe dream from the beginning.

>>25014
Fair enough. /ollies out